Refreshing a Quadra 605 + Bonus Quadra 650

[Nycturne]

I lucked out and found a Quadra 605 in surprisingly good shape at a local PC recycler. The case has only minimal yellowing, and the plastics are in better shape than I was hoping for. Only visible damage is a bit of an indent in the top case from where someone probably scraped a monitor across the top. I‘ve been wanting an 040 machine that isn’t a laptop, and if I can grab an Apple IIe card, this will be a rather nice project. Both the floppy drive and sound work, and it still boots from the original SCSI drive.

Opening up the case, the logic board is in good shape. No obvious evidence of corrosion or leaky caps. The battery didn’t leak either. Good starting point, but I’ll want to swap the caps before they do damage to this board. So let’s get the board out and get started:

Well, here’s the bad news. In the process of removing the caps, I managed to lift *3* solder pads. Both pads for C149 and the positive lead for C105. From the schematic, C105 is a filter cap for the SCSI power port as I suspected from the placement. Continuity testing the 5V line for the power port, it looks like the second filter cap is still connected properly. So I can bodge a wire to either the 5V pin on the port (easier), or the second capacitor (harder). But since I’m going with a BlueSCSI, I can probably get away with not repairing this immediately as I don’t need the 4-pin power connection, but I’d like to fix this while I am setup to do the work.

C149 I need to fix to keep sound working, but since it just needs to be connected to C150 and the correct pin on the sound chip, this should be a pretty simple repair. In terms of damage, it could have been much worse. Unfortunately, I don’t have any hookup wire fine enough to attach to the sound chip pin at the moment. So I’ll need to grab some to finish this work.

Sadly, the board won’t be quite as nice as how I got it, but I’m thankful the bodges will be straight-forward. While I’ve done some SMD work on similar era boards, this is the first Mac I’ve recapped.

My plans for upgrades are to upgrade the RAM to 36MB (it came with a 16MB SIMM), the VRAM to 1MB and CPU to a full 68040 and clock it at 33Mhz. See if I can get it within spitting distance of the Quadra 800 I had back in the 90s.

 

[Nycturne]

Picked up some 26AWG wire and installed the bodges. Not my best work, but all the replaced capacitors beeped out correctly based on the schematic, so time to start putting things back together.

Put back together in the lower case. The battery is temporary as I’m still waiting on many parts to show up in the mail and so I don’t yet have a CR2032 adapter I can put in these machines. Holiday mail delays.

And while I only have an ADB mouse at the moment, I can check that it boots and the sound chip is working fine. It’s not quite era-appropriate, but it looks quite good on an OLED monitor with a high quality upscaler.

Without a keyboard, it is going to be hard to finish setting up the drives. So I’m going to have to wait for the ADB Wombat to show up for next steps. It’s been at the local distribution center since the 18th, so it should be out for delivery very soon. IIe card and the 32MB FPM SIMM are also at the local distribution center. CPU is somewhere between California and here. VRAM should be here in the next week or two.

 

[Nycturne]

Everything but the VRAM has shown up. So I followed up with a few more modifications to the system:

- Installed a full MC68040 and 50x50x15mm heat sink.
- Installed a Noctua A6x15 FLX fan to get a little more airflow in the case (rated at 14CFM vs 11CFM of the original).
- Installed an Apple IIe card.
- Upgraded the RAM SIMM to 32MB.
- Swapped the SD card I was using as the BlueSCSI doesn't seem to like the extra Sony card I had, unfortunately.

I also went ahead and configured Total Replay for the Apple IIe card, and played with overclocking. Because I've got the MC88920, I'm not expecting to be able to push the system as far as others have, but the goal for me is to just try to catch up with a Quadra 800 (a computer I had growing up). I still need to move the R96 resistor, but it looks like 33Mhz is stable, while above that is not (I was trying 36Mhz when I started getting disk-related hangs). So at some point soon, I'll need to pull out the logic board and do the resistor swap so I can eke out an extra 10% or so.

Played around with a 3D printed duct for the fan to more directly pull air across the heat sink that others have created. However, I noticed that air flow dropped noticeably when the duct was installed, meaning that the air is more directed, but there is much less of it. I decided to remove the duct and let the system run as it was designed: negative pressure pulling air across the CPU (and heatsink). It works.

It's been years since I've messed around with an Apple II, and it's been a bit of a blast rediscovering some of the old games I used to play. Some I had completely forgotten about, like Apple Cider Spider and The Caves of Frietag. I did have some initial trouble because I forgot that upper-case was the default for the Apple II, and so if you don't have caps lock on when playing games, it can seem like the input is broken. Even better, my current USB keyboard doesn't even have Caps Lock. Guess I'm adding that back to the keymap.

And since we just had Christmas, I broke out a copy of X-Mas Lemmings (1992). The difficulty jump at Level 3 is exactly like I remember.

Now if I could figure out why Ambrosia says EV: Override is playable on a 68040 (recommended but not required), when the game gets some really gnarly slowdowns on the 605...

I just want to call out @OneGeekArmy for Disk Jockey, as I was about to embark on a journey of compiling Total Replay using a custom blank ProDOS partition image, and using 'dd' to inject it into my System 7 drive image before I realized Disk Jockey can combine partition images into a drive image. So thanks for making this sort of thing simpler to accomplish.

Also thanks to @phipli for their work on the software OC tool for these machines, and Mustermann for their investigation into the clock generator chips. It's honestly great to be able to adjust the clock generator like this in a way that is easily reversible.

 

[Nycturne]

While I wait on the VRAM, I’ve been working on the upscaling side of my setup.

Right now I’m using an Amazon bought VGA adapter, feeding into a Retrotink 4K, outputting to a 4K OLED. Yes, the 4K is expensive, but it supports upscaling VGA and DVI/HDMI, and it’s been a great tool to have with my retro consoles as well.

Anyways, I’ve been spending a little time configuring custom input modes and a profile for the Quadra 605 using this VGA adapter. So far it handles 640x480 and 832x624 perfectly, and you can switch between them at will. Need to play with seeing which mode on the adapter covers the most ground of the different modes these older machines support. The idea is that I’d like to polish this profile enough to share it with the wider community, as it should work with most Apple machines that use the DB-15 video port, and make it possible to jump between different resolutions using the single profile.

I’ve also been doing the same with a Quicksilver G4 I picked up, but that’s a story for a different thread.

EDIT: Posted the profiles I've been building to http://retrotink.biticus.net

 

[Nycturne]

Been a while since the last update, but a few things have happened:

* Got the 1MB VRAM in from Europe.
* Ordered some OS-CON capacitors to replace the under-rated solid Tantalums that came in the kit I bought (20V Tantalums for 12V filter caps? That’s not great).
* Finally decided to move the SCSI clock jumper.

I had managed to corrupt the drive images on the BlueSCSI badly enough that the machine could no longer boot because I was playing with the overclock while the SCSI clock jumper hadn’t been moved yet. Had to restore the images from a backup from before installing the software overclock to get the machine booting again. Always keep a backup.

I’ll just say that while the SCSI clock jumper move went mostly smoothly, I absolutely hate the placement of the thing considering how much space there is on this board otherwise. I removed the speaker header to avoid damaging it. With a little patience I did get it done. Since I had the logic board out anyways, I replaced most of the Tantalum caps with OS-CON capacitors. The sound chip’s bypass capacitors (which form a cheap bi-polar capacitor) I left in place because 3 of the 4 leads were bodges. After replacing the 5V SCSI filter cap which required a bodge, I just decided against doing more of that for the moment.

Beeped everything out to check my work, and then booted everything up. Did some SCSI performance tests just to make sure the SCSI bus was stable at 12.5 Mhz, reinstalled the overclock, and did more performance tests. SCSI performance looks good, and things seem more stable. No hangs so far. Since I do have a 50mm square heatsink on the chip already, decided to see how high this 88920 would let me go. Looks like 38.5Mhz. Good enough. The goal was to get this machine in the ballpark of a Quadra 800, and I think I’ve done that. 40Mhz would be “great”, but not required for this machine.

One weird thing that I noticed with this machine, is that I get slightly better performance from the BlueSCSI attached to the external SCSI port than the internal one. Even tried a couple different brands of SD card on the internal BlueSCSI and made sure both had the same firmware (the latest). 4.2MB/sec read, 3.1MB/sec write on the internal (max). 5.0MB/sec read and 3.0MB/sec on the external. Not sure what that means, and it’s still plenty fast, so… not terribly interested in doing a deep dive here on my own time.

 

[killvore]

The slowdowns in EV:Override might be if you don't have enough RAM to use the "Recommended" amount - I had a similar issue with EV:Nova on my 6100. I had more RAM than the minimum required, but less than the recommended. After a RAM upgrade, no more choppy slowdowns! I don't know how the Escape Velocity engine works but it might be that it's swapping to HD if it doesn't have the "recommended" amount.

I love these btw, just such a great - and convenient - 68k machine! Did you use the software overclock extension or are you actually doing a physical overclock? I ended up sticking the "low noise" adapterf for the Noctua flex on mine, makes it virtually silent!

 

[phipli]

One weird thing that I noticed with this machine, is that I get slightly better performance from the BlueSCSI attached to the external SCSI port than the internal one. Even tried a couple different brands of SD card on the internal BlueSCSI and made sure both had the same firmware (the latest). 4.2MB/sec read, 3.1MB/sec write on the internal (max). 5.0MB/sec read and 3.0MB/sec on the external. Not sure what that means, and it’s still plenty fast, so… not terribly interested in doing a deep dive here on my own time.

That sounds like a bad cable or poor termination.

First thing to do is check your termination settings - things sometimes still "work" when set wrong, just you get an increased number of retries meaning slower throughput. If that doesn't help, try a different cable?

Issues like this aside, the internal and external SCSI are physically the same conductors, so any issue is going to be a one of the obvious differences - dirty contacts, cable length, quality or termination.

 

[Nycturne]

That sounds like a bad cable or poor termination.

First thing to do is check your termination settings - things sometimes still "work" when set wrong, just you get an increased number of retries meaning slower throughput. If that doesn't help, try a different cable?

I can double check the termination settings on the internal just to make sure that the termination jumper didn’t come loose or something, but as it is all the same bus, wouldn’t this impact both devices? The testing was performed with both BlueSCSI devices installed at the same time, and so there are no differences in the state of the hardware between tests.

i would expect some difference due to booting from the internal, but I don’t think that can account for 1MB/s on its own.

Issues like this aside, the internal and external SCSI are physically the same conductors, so any issue is going to be a one of the obvious differences - dirty contacts, cable length, quality or termination.

This is why it seems weird. Nothing obviously wrong with the cable, and the machine was in great shape when it came to me. But as you mention cable length, one difference is the SCSI controller sits right next to the DB-25 port, while the internal header is about as far as you can get from the controller, plus the short cable. So as a practical matter, the length of traces/wire to the internal BlueSCSI is much, much longer.

The slowdowns in EV:Override might be if you don't have enough RAM to use the "Recommended" amount - I had a similar issue with EV:Nova on my 6100. I had more RAM than the minimum required, but less than the recommended. After a RAM upgrade, no more choppy slowdowns! I don't know how the Escape Velocity engine works but it might be that it's swapping to HD if it doesn't have the "recommended" amount.

I’ll check this. The machine has 36MB and virtual memory is disabled, but who knows. Something like EV wouldn’t be swapping to the drive in this state, but pausing to load resources might explain it. The original EV is smooth as butter, and every other game I tried runs as I expected. It’s just this one seems to consistently run at ~10 fps for some reason, despite Ambrosia saying it should run on an 030…

I love these btw, just such a great - and convenient - 68k machine! Did you use the software overclock extension or are you actually doing a physical overclock? I ended up sticking the "low noise" adapterf for the Noctua flex on mine, makes it virtually silent!

The Noctua is quiet enough without the adapter compared to other machines I have. And without the low noise adapter fitted, you actually get more airflow than stock. I wont say no to that.

Software for sure. I always prefer the route that is easier to undo, and gives me more flexibility. I ran it at 25Mhz for a while until I had the time and patience to move the SCSI clock resistor, once I learned the SCSI controller was not going to handle 33Mhz well.

 

[phipli]

I can double check the termination settings on the internal just to make sure that the termination jumper didn’t come loose or something, but as it is all the same bus, wouldn’t this impact both devices? The testing was performed with both BlueSCSI devices installed at the same time, and so there are no differences in the state of the hardware between tests.

i would expect some difference due to booting from the internal, but I don’t think that can account for 1MB/s on its own.

Check the settings on both rather than just one. Termination issues are like echos in a cave, they bounce around and the issues don't always appear next to the cause. Just because one thing is fully behaving, doesn't mean they both will. Also, swap the cards over and see if the fault follows the card in case it is the card or images.

SCSI termination is about the single most un-"but it should work because" thing in the world. Partial working, working on a tuesday but not if the sun is shining... etc. etc.

Plus not all of the modern SD card adapters have... complaint implementations of SCSI termination.

I’ll check this. The machine has 36MB and virtual memory is disabled, but who knows. Something like EV wouldn’t be swapping to the drive in this state, but pausing to load resources might explain it. The original EV is smooth as butter, and every other game I tried runs as I expected. It’s just this one seems to consistently run at ~10 fps for some reason, despite Ambrosia saying it should run on an 030…

36MB is way more RAM than needed for the EV Override, but to warn you, that game crawls on 030s - their 030 requirement might be optimistic.

Long pauses does sound more like a disk issue - perhaps it relates to the other issues your having. What is your CPU speed in MHz at the moment? I can run it on my 475 and see how it compares if you like. 475 is set up.

The Noctua is quiet enough without the adapter compared to other machines I have. And without the low noise adapter fitted, you actually get more airflow than stock. I wont say no to that.

I just cleaned and oiled the original fan and its plenty quiet enough. The hard disk is louder in mine.

 

[killvore]

@Nycturne I just gave EV:Override a shot on my LC475 with the following config:
- System 7.6.1
- 32MB RAM (enough for Recommended settings under 7.6.1)
- Full fat 040 running at 40MHz (thanks @phipli ! )
- "Use QuickDraw (more compatible)" on in the Set Prefs

To me, this is definitely playable! YMMV ofc

 

[Nycturne]

Check the settings on both rather than just one. Termination issues are like echos in a cave, they bounce around and the issues don't always appear next to the cause. Just because one thing is fully behaving, doesn't mean they both will. Also, swap the cards over and see if the fault follows the card in case it is the card or images.

There are no termination settings on the DB-25 BlueSCSI... only the Desktop V2 does. And removing the external BlueSCSI does not affect performance of the internal.

SCSI termination is about the single most un-"but it should work because" thing in the world. Partial working, working on a tuesday but not if the sun is shining... etc. etc.

Well aware.

36MB is way more RAM than needed for the EV Override, but to warn you, that game crawls on 030s - their 030 requirement might be optimistic.

Long pauses does sound more like a disk issue - perhaps it relates to the other issues your having. What is your CPU speed in MHz at the moment? I can run it on my 475 and see how it compares if you like. 475 is set up.

I think we are getting into misunderstanding territory again.

It's not long pauses, it's consistently low frame rate. If it was pauses/hangs, I'd say it's likely disk related too. But keep in mind I'm not seeing disk related hangs during file copies/etc... the "disk issues" as you put it is just not maxing out the SCSI bus for the internal BlueSCSI when doing testing.

@Nycturne I just gave EV:Override a shot on my LC475 with the following config:
- System 7.6.1
- 32MB RAM (enough for Recommended settings under 7.6.1)
- Full fat 040 running at 40MHz (thanks @phipli ! )
- "Use QuickDraw (more compatible)" on in the Set Prefs

I'm on 7.5 so that's one difference, and my system reports a different gestalt ID. I also can't overclock that high with my 88920, so I keep it at 33Mhz for now. The QD compatibility setting doesn't impact performance either way.

It would be funny if the gestalt was tripping up the performance checks in EV:O. Unlikely, but who knows.

 

[Nycturne]

May as well put this here as well, but I found the other Quadra I’ve been hoping to get a hold of.. a 650. Owner took good care of this one, so just a bit of yellowing on the case and some dirt to clean. Only 12MB of RAM, but that can be upgraded. Somehow the Quantum drive still works too.

Not even sure this one will make much of a project. RAM, maybe a new oscillator? Not even sure what NuBus/PDS cards to chase that aren’t already rare.

 

[killvore]

The Quadra 650 is a great machine! But like you said, it's already perfect One card you might consider getting is a DOS compatibility card, I am pretty sure they work in the Q650 (have one in my Q700, and I can test this weekend to see if it plays nice with the Q650).
To be honest most NuBus cards are either network or graphics cards, and Quadras have faster onboard graphics and the AAUI connector so they're not really all that necessary, unless you want to go multimonitor.

 

[Nycturne]

One card you might consider getting is a DOS compatibility card, I am pretty sure they work in the Q650 (have one in my Q700, and I can test this weekend to see if it plays nice with the Q650).

That is a thought for sure. With the spare PCI Orange Micro cards I have, maybe could trade for one in decent shape.

EDIT: I ran across your thread where you were getting this card working in a 700 while looking deeper into this. Don’t see why it wouldn’t work in the 650/800 as well.

To be honest most NuBus cards are either network or graphics cards, and Quadras have faster onboard graphics and the AAUI connector so they're not really all that necessary, unless you want to go multimonitor.

That’s what I’ve been reading.

 

[Arbystpossum]

I have never seen an LC PDS Graphics card for sale. Accelerated video would be awesome on one of these things. Games that say they need a 68040 don't run particularly well on these.

 

[Nycturne]

I have never seen an LC PDS Graphics card for sale. Accelerated video would be awesome on one of these things. Games that say they need a 68040 don't run particularly well on these.

Just to clear what seems to be confusion, I have both a Quadra 605 and 650 now, so discussion on what to use the expansion slots for was aimed at the latter. I should probably update the title maybe.

For the 605, I've got a IIe card that isn't going anywhere (except maybe removed briefly to be recapped). On that front, I just ordered a 5 1/4" disk drive for it so I can start going through some old Apple II disks from my father's collection.

 

[Arbystpossum]

I regret not getting a Ice card when they were $300 USD.

 

[killvore]

I was lucky and found a Supermac Spectrum, but I ended up wanting Ethernet more than an extra screen. It's not accelerated though so no speed boost - I don't think any of these LC PDS cards could accelerate things, at least not compared with the internal video on an '040

 

[Nycturne]

I was lucky and found a Supermac Spectrum, but I ended up wanting Ethernet more than an extra screen. It's not accelerated though so no speed boost - I don't think any of these LC PDS cards could accelerate things, at least not compared with the internal video on an '040

Since I'm kicking everything through an upscaler to an OLED, not much point in doing dual monitors in my case. Sure, it's not as authentic, but it's a lot easier on my eyes. Helps that the upscaler can be configured with optimized timings for the different Mac display modes of the era.

 

[Volvo242GT]

May as well put this here as well, but I found the other Quadra I’ve been hoping to get a hold of.. a 650. Owner took good care of this one, so just a bit of yellowing on the case and some dirt to clean. Only 12MB of RAM, but that can be upgraded. Somehow the Quantum drive still works too.

Not even sure this one will make much of a project. RAM, maybe a new oscillator? Not even sure what NuBus/PDS cards to chase that aren’t already rare.

You aren't in the Seattle, Washington area, are you?

If so, I hope RE-PC gave you a better deal on the 650 than what it was advertised at (that is, if you wound up getting it there). I do have some RAM SIMMs that I pulled from my 7100/80 when I upgraded it to 56MB of RAM. They'll work in a 650, of course. I may also be switching to a 4x CD-ROM drive in said Mac, which means I'll have the original caddy loader 2x drive with its bezel available.