The great LCD in a Color Classic thread. Well, I wish...

[JDW]

@ESM-NL
I do apologize, but I'm still rather confused, perhaps because I've not read all the posts pertaining to this topic (which are mostly on the 68kMLA.)

Are you saying that with the Stock CC Motherboard in combination with the LCD kit, you get only 16 colors at 640x480 (which is the only resolution the LCD kit offers, right?), but if you swap out the CC motherboard for an LC575 or LC550 or LC520 board, you then will get 256 colors, and then by adding the 256K VRAM SIMM, you get 16-bit (32768) colors? Is my understanding correct?

 

[ESM-NL]

Is my understanding correct?

Yes, that's correct. But watch out: there are two versions replacement types ABs: one type that only works for the stock CC/CCII/LC520/LC550 LB and one type that only works with mistic of takky LBs. Lukely for all types of AB counts the same for the VRAM:

VRAM at 640x480:
256k - 512k - 768k
16 colors - 256 colors - 32768 colors

 

[JDW]

there are two versions replacement types ABs: one type that only works for the stock CC/CCII/LC520/LC550 LB and one type that only works with mistic of takky LBs.

So that's the gotcha. You must choose one of two Analog Board types for the LCD kit.

I recently converted my 68.4V standard VGA mod to the 84V 13" Hi-rez Mod. The 68.4V Mod was great for 640x480 at 32,768 colors, but only with my LC575 Mystic Motherboard. Now with the 84V mod though, I can use ALL the motherboards:

• Stock CC
• LC520
• LC550 / CCII
• LC575

Installing the LCD kit would prevent the user from being able to use all 4 types of motherboards. That won't matter for most people, but it will for folks who do a lot of testing on different motherboards.

Thank you for the extremely helpful info, @ESM-NL !

 

[ESM-NL]

Now with the 84V mod though, I can use ALL the motherboards:

Well, that‘s interesting to know, because I have a stock CC since this week. So the 84V mod is the best way to go and still can use all the different LBs.

 

[Piszigri]

Hi guys! Me and Daan are the original designers of this kit. So, here are some in depth details. There are indeed two analog board designs, one was developed to make building a Takky project as streamlined and easy as possible, using the 630/6200 harness "as is" instead of having to rewire the flat cables. Obviusly, this is available to anyone that intends to build a Takky FROM SCRATCH TODAY.
But, for everyone else, that owns a CRT based machine, there is the CC-LCD kit, that simply replaces the original analog board as a "drop in" replacement, using a reverse engineered edge connector.
Which opens up interesting things, like the complete reversibility of the mod, as you can replace all CRT related parts and store them in a box and in any moment in the future, easily restore your Trinitron based machine, and also that it will work with ANY CRT based Color Classic machine.
To be precise, from the original Color Classic, to the CCII, to any version of the Mystic, and finally to any version of the Takky.
The AV board that Daan designed and that is part of the kit allows for resolutions of 640x480 (the numbers of colors is only dependent on the installed VRAM) and 800x600 (again up to millions of colors depending on the VRAM and board used, i.e. from 630 all the way to 6500 logic boards supported), simply by moving jumpers on the AV board itself.
Also, as Daan said, we are experimenting with LVDS displays, there is NO technical obstacle at this time, it's just that we need to make it cost effective.
Read: new panels are not exactly cheap. Plus, they need to be readily available in numbers - not just a one-off.
And yes, we still have a couple kits available for anyone that wants it.

 

[Piszigri]

So that's the gotcha. You must choose one of two Analog Board types for the LCD kit.

I recently converted my 68.4V standard VGA mod to the 84V 13" Hi-rez Mod. The 68.4V Mod was great for 640x480 at 32,768 colors, but only with my LC575 Mystic Motherboard. Now with the 84V mod though, I can use ALL the motherboards:

• Stock CC
• LC520
• LC550 / CCII
• LC575

Installing the LCD kit would prevent the user from being able to use all 4 types of motherboards. That won't matter for most people, but it will for folks who do a lot of testing on different motherboards.

Thank you for the extremely helpful info, @ESM-NL !

And, JDW, that is incorrect. The CC-LCD kit supports ANY CRT BASED MACHINE EVER BUILT. including Takkys built following the guides available online that use the CRT.
The only other use case is: I have in a recently purchased color classic a burned analog board, and maybe a bombed logic board. So I only have the plastics and all internals that are fine; I want to build a Takky. I find myself a 6500 logic board, a 630/6200 harness, and a Takky-LCD kit from us.

 

[JDW]

I’m afraid I’m now back to being confused.

I think you’re saying I’m incorrect about the need for choosing one of two analog board types which drive your LCD?

So… There’s in fact only one analog board type that you have made and sell?

Saying it another way, how does someone place an order with you to make sure what they order works with the Color Classic configuration they have, be that a Takky or Mystic (LC575 motherboard) or LC520 MB or stock CC MB?

Next question…

@zigzagjoe found an amazing, tack sharp, native resolution 640 x 480 LCD for his SE/30 color kit. It blows me away every time I look at it. I can only assume you did not consider that exact same LCD because you would need to supply a black 3-D printed bezel to cover the edges and you felt that screen would be too small in the CC?

The reason that question is important is because I have the understanding that the LCD you’re using now is about at the point where it’s no longer available and you need to consider alternatives.

 

[Piszigri]

Hi JDW.
OK, I have developed two analog board replacements - and they are both available at this time. The LCD kit is separate and is the same for all kits.
The CC-LCD kit is the one that works on every Color Classic. This is the one to order if all you want to do is replace your CRT with a LCD no matter what machine you have- CC with a 16mhz 68030 or a Takky with a 6500 board with a 500MHz G3 Crescendo Cache upgrade.
It has a edge connector, so you can drop it in a Color Classic that is presently working with an analog board driving a CRT.

The Takky-LCD (or "Takky from scratch") does NOT have an edge connector, as we use a normal IDC header connector, to accomodate the IDC header on the 630 flat cable that goes to the "AV Card out" present in all 6xx/6xxx machines, from the 630 all the way to the 6500. So you order this kit if you're a tinkerer that wants to build a Takky but presently have only a bunch of parts - if that makes sense.


So, I believe an image is better than a looong description. Unfortunately, I have right now only one image where both AB are compared - and they are both sort of prototypes, as a matter of fact, the production PCB is now Purple for the CC-LCD.
In the pic with both AB pcb, the right one has a white edge connector, just like the original AB has. The other one does not and obviously cannot be used in a working color classic.

 

[Piszigri]

As for your "next question", we had a LOT of luck in the early stages of design where we found a cache of 20-25 NIB 800x600 LCD displays that costed us a bargain price. I had decided for this display as it is compatible with the Takky, being 800x600 and also 8.2" so that it fills neatly all the available window of the CC. The black bezel is already included in the LCD kit as there are about 2mm of silver frame visible anyway, so that wasn't a problem; plus, the frame is responsible for holding the curved Lexan front lens to simulate the Trinitron cylindrical CRT.
We already found a viable 800x600 replacement as mentioned... but we are working in making it affordable.....

ETA - there are in fact three "kits" I have available: one kit, that includes a bezel, frame, front lens and LCD Display is the actual LCD and is always the same. You order this kit with either the CC-LCD Analog Board kit., or the Takky-LCD Analog Board kit. I can also sell the Analog Board kit stand alone, while the LCD Display is only available if you purchase an AB kit. Hopefully this clears the confusion.

ETA again... I believe some confusion also arose from the fact that i had not, in fact, tested the kit with a 575 board initially. Now, we have and it's perfectly compatible!!

 

[Piszigri]

So here's a pic with the present CC-LCD kit. It is the kit with LCD Display and frame plus mounting hardware, an analog board for the Color Classic, and all accessories.

 

[Piszigri]

Just to remind everyone, this kit is for sale. Please check the trading post!

 

[JDW]

@Piszigri
Thanks for the reminder! Here's a convenient link to your Trading Post page:

https://tinkerdifferent.com/threads/macintosh-color-classic-analog-board-and-lcd-replacement-kit.4738/

Please forgive me, but I have a few more questions that will help me and anyone else interested in your kits...

1. Is the BRIGHTNESS on your LCD adjustable by software or by the CC's front brightness buttons as is true of the stock CRT?

2. When your inventory of the GVision K08AS 8.4" monitor/Industrial LCD runs out, you said you will need to source a more expensive replacement LCD in order to keep selling the kits. Will your replacement LCD also be 800x600? Or will it be 1024x768 like Kai suggested on page 1 of this thread? (1024 resolution would allow for 512x384 when used with a 2x scaler.) Also, will your future replacement LCD be an IPS panel?

3. Is 512x384 resolution available? Or are the only selectable resolutions 640x480 and 800x600?

4. What motherboards can display 800x600 resolution on your LCD Kit? Takky motherboards only, or 68K boards too? (68K boards include: stock CC, LC520, LC550, LC575)

5. If someone is like me and has the "Stereo Mod" installed in their Color Classic (2 internal speakers with 2 wires to each speaker, and two TDA7052A audio amplifier chips), when they remove the stock CC Analog Board and install your Analog Board, what happens? Can both speakers still be used?

6. Below is the PHOTO you posted in the Trading Post.
Your pricing says:

• Analog Board replacement, Fully soldered, Includes PSU bracket, audio/video/softpower daughter board, and C14 internal power cabling.– €199
• Optional LCD Kit including a new, old stock GVision K08AS 8.4" industrial LCD with all steel VESA frame for drop-in mounting in the Color Classis front case. Includes front frame, mounting brackets, VGA cable, power cable, and curved glass lens. €129
• (You don't sell the required PSU, but you suggest we separately buy this one on Amazon.)

PLEASE CONFIRM IF EACH OF THE FOLLOWING IS CORRECT:​

• Your photo below does NOT show: (1) the curved glass lens or the (2) PSU bracket.
• The purple PCB below is your "Analog Board replacement" (for 68K motherboards, NOT for Takky).
• The "Optional LCD Kit" is comprised of the LCD and 3 black 3D-printed parts shown below.
• We can use the stock CC motherboard or LC520 or LC550 or LC575 with the kit shown in the photo below.
• The total cost for what is shown in the photo below is: €199 + €129 + shipping.

7. You said SHIPPING to the USA will be approximately 50 Euros. Does that shipping cost apply to Japan and Australia too?

8. Is there DOCUMENTATION that describes the installation procedure, and describes how to adjust resolutions?


Sorry for the many questions, but the answers will truly be helpful.

 

[Piszigri]

OK JDW, I can answer some of these and I'll let Daan answer the LCD related ones as he's looking into that.

1. Is the BRIGHTNESS on your LCD adjustable by software or by the CC's front brightness buttons as is true of the stock CRT?
As the stock kit goes no; simply because the display is connected thru an analog VGA port only to the computer. No connection to the PC to the driver board of the display. The front buttons do control via software the audio levels, though.
HOWEVER, Daan designed a clever front button board replacement, that integrates a MCU with programming, which interfaces with the display driver board; this way, you can switch with a combination of presses (pressing two buttons at the same time) from the Color Classic control that allows you to adjust volume, to Display control, which essentially duplicates the menu buttons of the LCD display allowing you full control of brightness, contrast, pixel clock, auto adjust for different resolutions, etc.
This is an option, it is also basically a drop-in and costs about 30 Euro fully programmed and with the additional connectors. It will also work with the future LCD I believe.

2. When your inventory of the GVision K08AS 8.4" monitor/Industrial LCD runs out, you said you will need to source a more expensive replacement LCD in order to keep selling the kits. Will your replacement LCD also be 800x600? Or will it be 1024x768 like Kai suggested on page 1 of this thread? (1024 resolution would allow for 512x384 when used with a 2x scaler.) Also, will your future replacement LCD be an IPS panel?
Daan should answer this.

3. Is 512x384 resolution available? Or are the only selectable resolutions 640x480 and 800x600?
Yes, it is available now, meaning the A/V board outputs that resolution - you simply select the 12" MON ID with a jumper. However the analog driver board of the GVision is not capable to lock on such slow scan rate. And, I'd like also to add, that some desktop panels do happily display the 512 resolution from the A/V board - an old 17" Dell LCD Multisync I have home works - however this Dell is not in the same form factor and size to be integrated in a Color Classic. Obviously...

4. What motherboards can display 800x600 resolution on your LCD Kit? Takky motherboards only, or 68K boards too? (68K boards include: stock CC, LC520, LC550, LC575)
If I had to answer this logically, I could say that the 520, 550 and 575 are hard wired to only have two ID lines, so they SHOULD be limited to an Apple 13" monitor - therefore, 640. this is because they never were intended to work outside an "All In One" with a fixed resolution - matter of fact, the 475 IS capable of 800x600, and it's the same architecture as the 575. Since most if not all Takkys come from desktops with separate displays, it is easy to make them display different resolutions. The Takky sees the A/V board as "multisync".
However, I would like Daan to answer this question in detail.

5. If someone is like me and has the "Stereo Mod" installed in their Color Classic (2 internal speakers with 2 wires to each speaker, and two TDA7052A audio amplifier chips), when they remove the stock CC Analog Board and install your Analog Board, what happens? Can both speakers still be used?
Obviously yes, because the A/V board also ADDS the stereo mod to any Color Classic... so with the kit, you can wire two loudspeakers inside the machine and voila, stereo

6. Below is the PHOTO you posted in the Trading Post.
Your pricing says:

• Analog Board replacement, Fully soldered, Includes PSU bracket, audio/video/softpower daughter board, and C14 internal power cabling.– €199
• Optional LCD Kit including a new, old stock GVision K08AS 8.4" industrial LCD with all steel VESA frame for drop-in mounting in the Color Classis front case. Includes front frame, mounting brackets, VGA cable, power cable, and curved glass lens. €129
• (You don't sell the required PSU, but you suggest we separately buy this one on Amazon.)

PLEASE CONFIRM IF EACH OF THE FOLLOWING IS CORRECT:

• Your photo below does NOT show: (1) the curved glass lens or the (2) PSU bracket. Correct, both the flat glass (it curves inside the frame) or the PSU bracket are not present. I use a 1mm acrylic flat glass because anyone can replace it for 5 Euro from Amazon when it becomes scratched.
• The purple PCB below is your "Analog Board replacement" (for 68K motherboards, NOT for Takky). Yes, although IT WILL work with EXISTING Takkys that use the Trinitron CRT Analog Board with 640 mod.
• The "Optional LCD Kit" is comprised of the LCD and 3 black 3D-printed parts shown below. Yes, there are some more small parts and cables that are not in the photo too.
• We can use the stock CC motherboard or LC520 or LC550 or LC575 with the kit shown in the photo below. Yes.
• The total cost for what is shown in the photo below is: €199 + €129 + shipping. Yes, including the parts you mention that are not in the pic.

7. You said SHIPPING to the USA will be approximately 50 Euros. Does that shipping cost apply to Japan and Australia too? I have absolutely no idea. If you give me a country, zip code and city i can run a simulation and tell you.

8. Is there DOCUMENTATION that describes the installation procedure, and describes how to adjust resolutions?
Yes, although not very deep - the kit is supposed to be basically "drop in" and intuitive, and in any case I'm available to answer any question.


Sorry for the many questions, but the answers will truly be helpful.
Absolutely no problen JDW!

 

[JDW]

Thank you so much for your time in answering!
I do want to give you more info about the following point though...

...I could say that the 520, 550 and 575 are hard wired to only have two ID lines, so they SHOULD be limited to an Apple 13" monitor - therefore, 640. this is because they never were intended to work outside an "All In One" with a fixed resolution - matter of fact, the 475 IS capable of 800x600, and it's the same architecture as the 575.... I would like Daan to answer this question in detail.

I have done the 68.4V VGA Mod in the past (currently, I've switched to the 84V 13" High Resolution Mod). The 68.4V VGA mod actually gives you the choice of 640x480 (at 60Hz) or 800x600 (at 56Hz) on the stock CRT, as I show in my video at 36:16 here. In contrast, the 84V 13" High Resolution mod does NOT offer anything but 640x480 resolution.

So this is just FYI for yourself and Daan.

 

[Piszigri]

Well, we do offer the VGA ID MON setting, so possibly it could work. I am not home so I cannot test it but I’ll ask Daan about it…

 

[daanvdl]

Well, we do offer the VGA ID MON setting, so possibly it could work. I am not home so I cannot test it but I’ll ask Daan about it…

In addition, regarding the LCD (referring to point 8 in the previous post reply):
Currently, we still have a few K08AS left. We believe this is a truly exceptional display for this kit.
While we are naturally very enthusiastic about the final result, it's important that there's sufficient demand to justify purchasing multiple potential LCD panels.

There are a few candidates for a future display (but no final choice has been made yet).
Theoretically, any physically suitable panel is a candidate. The biggest challenge at the moment is finding an LCD driver controller that supports the unusual 512x384 display resolution (and associated hsync frequencies).
Most modern VGA LCD monitors can only handle 31.5 kHz and above. The 512x384 resolution on all Apple logicboard has a horizontal sync frequency of 24.48 kHz, and that poses the biggest challenge.
Of course, we could choose to only support 640x480 and up, but we're not there yet.


Regarding the available settings Piszigri refers to, the desired settings can be selected using jumpers on our analog board replacement:
- "12-inch mode" sets the senselines to a fixed resolution of 512x384/60.15 Hz. This resolution is supported on all available logicboards. Officially documented as RGB 12" (see above for the limitation. Few displays support this).
- "13-inch mode" sets the senselines to a fixed resolution of 640x480/66.67. This resolution is supported on all available logicboards. Officially documented as Hi-Res 12-14".
- VGA mode sets the senselines to VGA, which supports a set of resolutions at 59.94 Hz. Note that not all logic boards support this output. For example: The CC logicboard only supports 12/13-inch modes.

 

[JDW]

Thank you very much for the added info, @daanvdl .

So in regards to my question No. 4, which I revisited in my previous post too, it would seem that displaying 800x600 with a compatible 68K motherboard is not possible, as per the fact you offer 12-inch mode or 13-inch mode exclusively. As mentioned in my previous post, the 68.4V "VGA mod" allows selection of 800x600 (at 56Hz), but the 84V "13-inch High Resolution Mod" does not.

The inability to choose 800x600 is not a big deal. I was just trying to confirm that point. I do understand that 800x600 is possible with Takky (PPC) motherboards, but in my own case, I have only 68K boards not PPC.

---

@ESM-NL
You said you purchased the kit for your Color Classic in June. Please tell us how your thoughts about it relative to the stock CRT.

 

[ESM-NL]

You said you purchased the kit for your Color Classic in June. Please tell us how your thoughts about it relative to the stock CRT.

It's an improvement that it is 640x480 and the machine weights much less. Besides that, the System Info video ratings are even better then from an SE/30 with the 47Mhz PDS booster in it, even with the considderation that the SE/30 has only 512x342.

With the LC 550 board (with FPU), the ratings are overall 2,76, while an SE/30 with the 47Mhz PDS booster card in it scores only 2,58, related to the original CC with PFU.

The last photo is with my 512Ke to have some comparison in brightness of both screens. The CC desktop color is set to light blue. Photos all taken with an iPnone 8.

 

[JDW]

It's an improvement that it is 640x480 and the machine weights much less.

Yes, I’ve been pondering that lower weight benefit quite a lot actually. It worries me to pick it up only by the top handle, so I’m always very careful to put my left hand under the machine when moving it around.

On top of that, the LCD makes the pixels perfect — not a 640x480 “native resolution” LCD, but it still seems to look better than the CRT when I view your photos. All the lines are straight, there are no distortions, and there is no color fringing.

…the SE/30 has only 512x384.

512x342 on the stock CRT.

The CC’s stock resolution has slightly more vertical pixels (384) than the SE/30 (342).

The last photo is with my 512Ke to have some comparison in brightness of both screens.

It seems you didn’t upload that. I look forward to seeing it!

 

[ESM-NL]

512x342 on the stock CRT.

Sorry, I copy/paste what I saw was "the right messurement" Of course it should be 512x342. I change it.

It seems you didn’t upload that. I look forward to seeing it!

It is there right now. Just forgot it while I was typing.