First official C64 in 36 years

[Volvo242GT]

The keyboard seems to be an improvement over the original. Sounds more like an Apple M3501 keyboard. With respect to the tan color of the function keys, those are more like what you'd find on a ViC-20. From what I remember, early C64 machines did come with them, whereas the later breadbox C64s (like the one we owned) had the grayish-brown function keys.

 

[JDW]

In light of the recent passing of Computer Chronicles host, Stewart Cheifet, it’s perhaps fitting for this thread that I post the episode which focused exclusively on the Commodore 64:

 

[muse]

Gary Kildall was the guy behind CP/M.

Unfortunately, he passed away during the 90s in an accident.

 

[JDW]

Gary Kildall was the guy behind CP/M.
Unfortunately, he passed away during the 90s in an accident.

Yes, I mentioned that on the memorial page I created for Mr. Cheifet here:

https://tinkerdifferent.com/threads/stewart-cheifet-sept-24-1938-dec-28-2025.4937/

 

[jonschwenn]

In light of the recent passing of Computer Chronicles host, Stewart Cheifet, it’s perhaps fitting for this thread that I post the episode which focused exclusively on the Commodore 64:

Thank you for sharing that. Koala paint with the pad is one of my earliest memories. I must have been preschool or kindergarten-aged. In early grade school I would have spent more time with games like summer and winter games, paperboy, dig dug, zaxxon, bruce lee, TMNT, tapper, test drive, spy hunter, etc. I spent countless hours exploring each of the disks that filled multiple disk organizers that must have been copies handed down from my uncle to my dad.

I have a starlight edition C64U on order that hopefully should ship soon. I ordered it once I saw the video about the production line and realized this project was actually happening and not going to be a long drawn out promise of something for the future.

I know my childhood C64 works as I dug it out of my parents' basement along with the monitor and the 1541 disk drive. My dad is persistent on wanting to keep it along with his 8088 XT clone which was the first computer I used to get on the internet. I'm particularly sentimental about those machines.

 

[muse]

You're lucky. They aren't guaranteed to work after sitting around for decades. Any Commodore/MOS manufactured chip ( PLA, MOS 74 series chips and unfortunately the SID chip ) were prone to corroding internally over time due an imbalance between phosphorous and boron used when manufacturing these chips. They used more boron to soften the silicon and make it flow faster which corroded the chip inside, so you didn't have to be actively using the machine for it to fail.

 

[muse]

Yes, I mentioned that on the memorial page I created for Mr. Cheifet here:

https://tinkerdifferent.com/threads/stewart-cheifet-sept-24-1938-dec-28-2025.4937/

I don't think Computer Chronicles aired in my part of Australia. According to google, it aired in Brisbane on Briz 31 but I never heard of the programme until later on the internet.


BTW, I ended up ordering a C64U after seeing a few more reviews and additional features it has VS an original c64 with a 1541U+ , ordered the basic beige.

 

[iantm]

I was introduced to early computing and gaming through an Apple //c and a C64, but since I didn't own the latter I didn't get as attached to it. That said, I love that this is being made — I might have to add it to my collection because it's such an important milestone in computing history.

 

[JDW]

@iantm
I had neither of those 8-bit computing platform in my youth, as our family's first home computer was the 16/32-bit hybrid 68000 Macintosh 128K. I only got into the Apple II series with the IIc that was donated to me by some extremely kind people in our community.

What's most interesting about the Apple II (to me) is how bad the audio is. To say it stinks is an understatement. In contrast, the C64 has better audio than an Apple IIc with a Mockingboard 4c installed, and I know because I now have a C64 Ultimate and can compare with my IIc with Mockingboard. And relative few Apple II titles took advantage of the Mockingboard back in the day. Mockingboard sound is really good, and night-and-day compared to base Apple II audio, but the SIDs in the C64 synthesize sound even better.

Because I started with the Mac, I was accustomed to "good sound." I never really ever longed for anything more. The SID audio chips in the C64 are better in terms of being a fantastic audio synthesizer, but the first Mac could play recorded and sampled sounds, as well as produce speech. These areas were superior to capabilities of the SID chips.

Does audio matter though?

Yes. I think audio absolutely does matter. Why? Because most consumers back in the day who owned a computer of any kind, especially the Apple II series, C64 or early Macs, played a lot of games. And audio, in my mind anyway, really makes or breaks the gaming experience.

Does gaming matter today? Yes, more than ever. The reason why is because most people who are into Retro aren't going to use "productivity" software (or even graphics apps) on vintage machines because modern machines make you vastly more productive. It's fun to relive the Word 5 experience on my vintage Macs, but it's not my daily word processor. No, most of us are either fixing or playing games on vintage machines, and the new C64U will be no exception.

The good news is the C64U has even better sound than the vintage C64 due to having multiple SID chips. True, most vintage games for the C64 never took advantage of more than one SID, but there are modern titles which do, and I suspect there will be more in the future.

 

[muse]

I became attached to the Apple II even though I didn't have one. Spent many hours on them during recess and lunch in school and learned programming on them. The c64 was more difficult to program, the basic wasn't good and there was no built in machine code monitor. So I struggled with it having limited access to resources and just played games.

The SID can indeed play sampled audio, the technique or trick involved toggling the volume register or the pulse width modulation register. See games like Impossible Mission, Ghostbusters, Way Of The Exploding Fist.. just some examples of playing audio samples. It was a crude way of playing samples and didn't compare to the clean 8bit PCM audio of the Mac.

Woz had a different philosophy regarding computer design. Build a computer system as cheap and as elegant as possible and make it open with slots so things like a Mockingboard could be added. Apple didn't have a chip fab, so the next best thing was to use an off the shelf AY.

Ironically, the same guy who designed the SID chip in the c64 also did the sound in the Apple IIGS

 

[JDW]

The SID can indeed play sampled audio, the technique or trick involved toggling the volume register or the pulse width modulation register. See games like Impossible Mission, Ghostbusters, Way Of The Exploding Fist.. just some examples of playing audio samples. It was a crude way of playing samples and didn't compare to the clean 8bit PCM audio of the Mac.

Yes it can play really bad sampled audio, and that's why your term "crude" is 100% correct because I've heard those sampled audio sounds — especially Ghost Busters (aka, "speech busters") — and most of the time you're replaying it to figure out what was spoken.

When I got the 128K Mac in 1984, I also got a copy of SmoothTalker 1.0, and while "crude" versus speech of today (which is now hardly discernible from a real person), the Macintosh 128K's speech generation was a night-and-day difference over the C64's speech. I never once struggled to know what SmoothTalker said. In fact, I was enamored by how good my Mac was versus the 8-bit machines my friends at the time had (Jr. High school days). But when it comes to "synthesized" audio, the C64 beat the Mac and pretty much everything else in 1984. That's the main reason I bought the C64U, actually. You get to experience the SIDs yourself, on functional hardware — not just an emulator. There's something magical to me about real hardware, over and above an emulator.

I've been watching a lot of interviews and historical documentaries about Jack Tramiel, and there was one where Woz was asked to comment about the audio of the Apple II, and all he had to say at the time was that, as of the IIgs, the Apple II had good audio. I thought that was hilarious. True, but still funny. Regardless of the design reasons, bad audio is bad audio, and you really can't say anything good to defend it other than what he said in that interview — as of the IIgs, we have it now! LOL. (Again, there was the Mockingboard and other add-ons, but when most games don't support them, it's almost like they didn't exist.)

The c64 was more difficult to program, the basic wasn't good and there was no built in machine code monitor. So I struggled with it having limited access to resources and just played games.

A lot of 8-bit machine makers in the early 80's wanted to pitch the "computer" aspect of their gaming machines to convince parents to buy. And yes, it technically was a computer, despite the fact 90% of the user base were playing games. I suspect the remaining 10% were programming like mad on the C64 to bring even more games to market! Play games... Program more games!

Look at 8-bit Guy today. Aside from his excellent historical info videos on Commodore and the technical aspects of the machines, what he has produced for the C64 in recent times are games. Not knocking him at all. Just another example to show why the C64 was indeed a gaming machine first and foremost. And the fact that Jack T. keep reducing the price tag of the C64 helped ensure that more kids would get them. And kids play lots of games!

 

[akator]

The Atari 8-bit computers also had great audio from their POKEY chip (which was also used in Atari arcade machines). It's not quite as good as the C64 SID, but POKEY is also dated from 1979 so 3 years before SID.

I had a MockingBoard IIc back in the day and it was an incredible improvement over the Apple II 1-bit audio, but like JDW said the SID was better. So was POKEY. The MockingBoard products did have the TI speech synthesis chip which was awfully cool within itself, which the Atari and Commodore computers did not.

By the time we got to our 16/32 bit computers, the Macs were good but the Atari ST and Amiga machines trounced the Macs there as well. Atari ST computers were a mainstay of music production for many years because of their built-in MIDI interface and impressive audio capabilities. Not that Macs couldn't do MIDI, it was just a (significant at the time) added expense.

It's 40+ years later and I haven't had the MockingBoard IIc for a long time. I only reaquired a IIc in early 2025 but the 1-bit audio doesn't. bother me because it's so distinctively Apple II. If I want awesome 8-bit computer audio I can use my Atari or Commodore computers. (I do have a voice systhesis peripheral for my VIC-20 so I'm not missing much.)

 

[muse]

The POKEY is arguably better in some areas. The SID was more flexible and better for music all around but I liked the powerful bass and early 80s arcade like sound effects in the Atari computer. If I play Dropzone, then it's always on my Atari 800XL because the sound just makes the game that much better.

@JDW

Most people programmed games on the c64. The motivation behind that was the hardware and young programmers got very excited about it, hence all the cool games, demos and cracktros.

If you want to see a funny Jack Tramiel interview then you need watch this until the end

 

[JDW]

@muse
I didn't have time to watch your linked video until now. The resolution is absolutely horrendous! But the content was great. I was absolutely rolling at the very end when Tramiel shook the interviewer's hand and then immediately stood up and walked off the set! He was a busy man! LOL.

 

[ClassicHasClass]

the Macintosh 128K's speech generation was a night-and-day difference over the C64's speech.

No argument, but this is not exactly an Apples to apples comparison, to be sure.

 

[JDW]

…this is not exactly an Apples to apples comparison, to be sure.

Jack Tramiel himself, in multiple interviews, would always compare his computers to his competitors, especially Apple (the company Jack almost bought when the two Steves were still in the garage). Jack continue to make those comparisons even when he later moved to Atari, basically emphasizing how much less expensive his machines were than the Macintosh, or most any competitor, emphasizing that when the machine is that low cost, and yet offer so much similar functionality, the other differences don’t matter much. Consumers mostly agreed with that as per the fact they bought Jack’s machines in the millions! You can see Jack do the Mac to Atari comparison in the video interview posted by @muse.

Most of us here are computer savvy, but some may be surprised to learn that Jack Tramiel really was not. He was a cutthroat businessman, first and foremost.

My position is, whether or not one wishes to accept the comparison of Apples to Oranges, good sound is good sound. Bad sound is bad sound. Arguments like “you gotta understand the eight bit architecture and time period“ are valid things to say to geeks focused on tech details, but they don’t negate the fact that good sound is good and bad sound is bad sound. That’s the only point I’m really trying to make on this topic.

As such, anyone mulling the purchase of a C64U will be pleased with the sound. That remains true even though the Mac had superior voice synthesis. You play a lot more background music in games than speech.

 

[muse]

Jack Tramiel himself, in multiple interviews, would always compare his computers to his competitors, especially Apple (the company Jack almost bought when the two Steves were still in the garage). Jack continue to make those comparisons even when he later moved to Atari, basically emphasizing how much less expensive his machines were than the Macintosh, or most any competitor, emphasizing that when the machine is that low cost, and yet offer so much similar functionality, the other differences don’t matter much. Consumers mostly agreed with that as per the fact they bought Jack’s machines in the millions! You can see Jack do the Mac to Atari comparison in the video interview posted by @muse.

Most of us here are computer savvy, but some may be surprised to learn that Jack Tramiel really was not. He was a cutthroat businessman, first and foremost.

My position is, whether or not one wishes to accept the comparison of Apples to Oranges, good sound is good sound. Bad sound is bad sound. Arguments like “you gotta understand the eight bit architecture and time period“ are valid things to say to geeks focused on tech details, but they don’t negate the fact that good sound is good and bad sound is bad sound. That’s the only point I’m really trying to make on this topic.

As such, anyone mulling the purchase of a C64U will be pleased with the sound. That remains true even though the Mac had superior voice synthesis. You play a lot more background music in games than speech.

Cut throat is probably an understatement. He was absolutely brutal in Business. Some liked him but he was not always liked, especially in business.

I don't think Apple were even close to being sold to Commodore, there were some meetings. Jobs wanted investment so they could build enough machines and wanted to run the Apple program at Commodore but Jack had other ideas, he was only interested in the machine itself and have his own team run the program. But they were already working on the first Pet and Jobs didn't like Tramiel anyway...

In my opinion, he only wanted the Apple Technology if that meant reducing the time it would take to design, build and release the first Pet.

 

[JDW]

I don't think Apple were even close to being sold to Commodore, there were some meetings. Jobs wanted investment so they could build enough machines and wanted to run the Apple program at Commodore but Jack had other ideas, he was only interested in the machine itself and have his own team run the program. But they were already working on the first Pet and Jobs didn't like Tramiel anyway... In my opinion, he only wanted the Apple Technology if that meant reducing the time it would take to design, build and release the first Pet.

The history that I have read is not clear on that. I keep reading something about the deal having not happened only due to a mere $15,000. But if what I read about Jack being a cut-throat businessman are true, then perhaps it could be said that his intentions with the then-in-the-garage (and therefore easily purchasable) Apple were to eliminate a potential competitor as much or more than any tech he may glean from the purchase. Good thing for the world of computing that Jack's negotiations with the two Steves fell through.

 

[ClassicHasClass]

Jack Tramiel himself, in multiple interviews, would always compare his computers to his competitors, especially Apple (the company Jack almost bought when the two Steves were still in the garage). Jack continue to make those comparisons even when he later moved to Atari, basically emphasizing how much less expensive his machines were than the Macintosh, or most any competitor, emphasizing that when the machine is that low cost, and yet offer so much similar functionality, the other differences don’t matter much. Consumers mostly agreed with that as per the fact they bought Jack’s machines in the millions!

Yes, all true, but specifically for the Mac that was in the days of the Atari ST (the "Jackintosh" as they called it). Tramiel, much less Bob Yannes, never compared the Mac's sound (or speech output, for that matter) to the 64's. I'm not sure if he would have if he'd been at Commodore longer, but regardless, he didn't.

I know you know this and I'm being a bit of a pain here on purpose, but on CPU alone you can simply bitstuff better digi with a 7.83MHz 68000 than a 1.0225MHz 6510, even if all you have is a primitive DAC output. That's why I'm a little sceptical of the comparison.

 

[JDW]

Yes, all true, but specifically for the Mac that was in the days of the Atari ST (the "Jackintosh" as they called it). Tramiel, much less Bob Yannes, never compared the Mac's sound (or speech output, for that matter) to the 64's. I'm not sure if he would have if he'd been at Commodore longer, but regardless, he didn't.

Indeed, I agree that he did not make that specific comparison. See the video interview posted by @muse here. Jack had the Atari ST right in front of him. Too bad the quality is so low because you can't see what's on screen, but he's using its GUI in that interview, and also, he makes no highly technical comparisons with the Mac whatsoever. A Mac is also sitting right there in front of Jack in that interview. Jack probably didn't make technical comparisons like that because he was mainly a business-focused guy.

Not sure if you know this, but Jack's son Leonard says in the interview below that the first computer his father Jack ever felt comfortable in using was an Apple iPad! Which implies that Jack never felt comfortable using any of the machines he sold in the 80s.

...on CPU alone you can simply bitstuff better digi with a 7.83MHz 68000 than a 1.0225MHz 6510, even if all you have is a primitive DAC output. That's why I'm a little sceptical of the comparison.

Basically, you are saying "it's not a fair comparison," and I agree it is not fair because the Mac wins quite handily due to those important hardware differences. But when it comes to business people back in the 80's pitching their machines against competitors, unfair comparisons were made. And as to me comparing machines, as I said previously, my focus was and is on Good vs. Bad sound, not the technical reasons why sound is better or worse on a given machine. You see, I grew up using the Mac, not those 8-bit machines. So I never understood back in the day what all the fuss was about over sound. When you dive into the technical matters, you then understand it; but when you're using a Mac exclusively, you will ultimately say: "Well, I don't use all those other machines, so I'm satisfied with the machine I have." And so I did.

My peers in Jr. High back in 1984 never really coveted the Mac because they were happy playing color games on the C64, Atari 2600 or other game consoles. I was extremely satisfied with the higher resolution B&W games on the Mac, and I also loved the fact my homework scores were better too because my reports were more spectacular than my peers when printed out on the ImageWriter I. In fact, I was impressing my instructors all the way to 1989, when one of my first year EE professors asked if I had made a certain drawing (which impressed him) in AutoCAD. He was floored when I said I did it in Deneba Canvas on a B&W Macintosh.

But despite all that history loving the Mac, I still remember my friend in 1982 who had a C64. There were certain aspects of it that enamored that Mac-loving me. And so, it comes as no surprise that I bought a C64U when Christian Simpson took over the company and released something both modern and vintage in the same box. I think it's really neat.