First official C64 in 36 years

Volvo242GT

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The keyboard seems to be an improvement over the original. Sounds more like an Apple M3501 keyboard. With respect to the tan color of the function keys, those are more like what you'd find on a ViC-20. From what I remember, early C64 machines did come with them, whereas the later breadbox C64s (like the one we owned) had the grayish-brown function keys.
 
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muse

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Gary Kildall was the guy behind CP/M.

Unfortunately, he passed away during the 90s in an accident.
 

jonschwenn

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In light of the recent passing of Computer Chronicles host, Stewart Cheifet, it’s perhaps fitting for this thread that I post the episode which focused exclusively on the Commodore 64:

Thank you for sharing that. Koala paint with the pad is one of my earliest memories. I must have been preschool or kindergarten-aged. In early grade school I would have spent more time with games like summer and winter games, paperboy, dig dug, zaxxon, bruce lee, TMNT, tapper, test drive, spy hunter, etc. I spent countless hours exploring each of the disks that filled multiple disk organizers that must have been copies handed down from my uncle to my dad.

I have a starlight edition C64U on order that hopefully should ship soon. I ordered it once I saw the video about the production line and realized this project was actually happening and not going to be a long drawn out promise of something for the future.

I know my childhood C64 works as I dug it out of my parents' basement along with the monitor and the 1541 disk drive. My dad is persistent on wanting to keep it along with his 8088 XT clone which was the first computer I used to get on the internet. I'm particularly sentimental about those machines.
 
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muse

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You're lucky. They aren't guaranteed to work after sitting around for decades. Any Commodore/MOS manufactured chip ( PLA, MOS 74 series chips and unfortunately the SID chip ) were prone to corroding internally over time due an imbalance between phosphorous and boron used when manufacturing these chips. They used more boron to soften the silicon and make it flow faster which corroded the chip inside, so you didn't have to be actively using the machine for it to fail.
 
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muse

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Yes, I mentioned that on the memorial page I created for Mr. Cheifet here:

I don't think Computer Chronicles aired in my part of Australia. According to google, it aired in Brisbane on Briz 31 but I never heard of the programme until later on the internet.


BTW, I ended up ordering a C64U after seeing a few more reviews and additional features it has VS an original c64 with a 1541U+ , ordered the basic beige.
 
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iantm

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I was introduced to early computing and gaming through an Apple //c and a C64, but since I didn't own the latter I didn't get as attached to it. That said, I love that this is being made — I might have to add it to my collection because it's such an important milestone in computing history.
 
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JDW

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I had neither of those 8-bit computing platform in my youth, as our family's first home computer was the 16/32-bit hybrid 68000 Macintosh 128K. I only got into the Apple II series with the IIc that was donated to me by some extremely kind people in our community.

What's most interesting about the Apple II (to me) is how bad the audio is. To say it stinks is an understatement. In contrast, the C64 has better audio than an Apple IIc with a Mockingboard 4c installed, and I know because I now have a C64 Ultimate and can compare with my IIc with Mockingboard. And relative few Apple II titles took advantage of the Mockingboard back in the day. Mockingboard sound is really good, and night-and-day compared to base Apple II audio, but the SIDs in the C64 synthesize sound even better.

Because I started with the Mac, I was accustomed to "good sound." I never really ever longed for anything more. The SID audio chips in the C64 are better in terms of being a fantastic audio synthesizer, but the first Mac could play recorded and sampled sounds, as well as produce speech. These areas were superior to capabilities of the SID chips.

Does audio matter though?

Yes. I think audio absolutely does matter. Why? Because most consumers back in the day who owned a computer of any kind, especially the Apple II series, C64 or early Macs, played a lot of games. And audio, in my mind anyway, really makes or breaks the gaming experience.

Does gaming matter today? Yes, more than ever. The reason why is because most people who are into Retro aren't going to use "productivity" software (or even graphics apps) on vintage machines because modern machines make you vastly more productive. It's fun to relive the Word 5 experience on my vintage Macs, but it's not my daily word processor. No, most of us are either fixing or playing games on vintage machines, and the new C64U will be no exception.

The good news is the C64U has even better sound than the vintage C64 due to having multiple SID chips. True, most vintage games for the C64 never took advantage of more than one SID, but there are modern titles which do, and I suspect there will be more in the future.
 
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muse

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I became attached to the Apple II even though I didn't have one. Spent many hours on them during recess and lunch in school and learned programming on them. The c64 was more difficult to program, the basic wasn't good and there was no built in machine code monitor. So I struggled with it having limited access to resources and just played games.

The SID can indeed play sampled audio, the technique or trick involved toggling the volume register or the pulse width modulation register. See games like Impossible Mission, Ghostbusters, Way Of The Exploding Fist.. just some examples of playing audio samples. It was a crude way of playing samples and didn't compare to the clean 8bit PCM audio of the Mac.

Woz had a different philosophy regarding computer design. Build a computer system as cheap and as elegant as possible and make it open with slots so things like a Mockingboard could be added. Apple didn't have a chip fab, so the next best thing was to use an off the shelf AY.

Ironically, the same guy who designed the SID chip in the c64 also did the sound in the Apple IIGS
 
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JDW

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The SID can indeed play sampled audio, the technique or trick involved toggling the volume register or the pulse width modulation register. See games like Impossible Mission, Ghostbusters, Way Of The Exploding Fist.. just some examples of playing audio samples. It was a crude way of playing samples and didn't compare to the clean 8bit PCM audio of the Mac.
Yes it can play really bad sampled audio, and that's why your term "crude" is 100% correct because I've heard those sampled audio sounds — especially Ghost Busters (aka, "speech busters") — and most of the time you're replaying it to figure out what was spoken. :)

When I got the 128K Mac in 1984, I also got a copy of SmoothTalker 1.0, and while "crude" versus speech of today (which is now hardly discernible from a real person), the Macintosh 128K's speech generation was a night-and-day difference over the C64's speech. I never once struggled to know what SmoothTalker said. In fact, I was enamored by how good my Mac was versus the 8-bit machines my friends at the time had (Jr. High school days). But when it comes to "synthesized" audio, the C64 beat the Mac and pretty much everything else in 1984. That's the main reason I bought the C64U, actually. You get to experience the SIDs yourself, on functional hardware — not just an emulator. There's something magical to me about real hardware, over and above an emulator.

I've been watching a lot of interviews and historical documentaries about Jack Tramiel, and there was one where Woz was asked to comment about the audio of the Apple II, and all he had to say at the time was that, as of the IIgs, the Apple II had good audio. :) I thought that was hilarious. True, but still funny. Regardless of the design reasons, bad audio is bad audio, and you really can't say anything good to defend it other than what he said in that interview — as of the IIgs, we have it now! LOL. (Again, there was the Mockingboard and other add-ons, but when most games don't support them, it's almost like they didn't exist.)

The c64 was more difficult to program, the basic wasn't good and there was no built in machine code monitor. So I struggled with it having limited access to resources and just played games.
A lot of 8-bit machine makers in the early 80's wanted to pitch the "computer" aspect of their gaming machines to convince parents to buy. And yes, it technically was a computer, despite the fact 90% of the user base were playing games. I suspect the remaining 10% were programming like mad on the C64 to bring even more games to market! Play games... Program more games!

Look at 8-bit Guy today. Aside from his excellent historical info videos on Commodore and the technical aspects of the machines, what he has produced for the C64 in recent times are games. Not knocking him at all. Just another example to show why the C64 was indeed a gaming machine first and foremost. And the fact that Jack T. keep reducing the price tag of the C64 helped ensure that more kids would get them. And kids play lots of games!
 

akator

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Aug 25, 2023
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The Atari 8-bit computers also had great audio from their POKEY chip (which was also used in Atari arcade machines). It's not quite as good as the C64 SID, but POKEY is also dated from 1979 so 3 years before SID.

I had a MockingBoard IIc back in the day and it was an incredible improvement over the Apple II 1-bit audio, but like JDW said the SID was better. So was POKEY. The MockingBoard products did have the TI speech synthesis chip which was awfully cool within itself, which the Atari and Commodore computers did not.

By the time we got to our 16/32 bit computers, the Macs were good but the Atari ST and Amiga machines trounced the Macs there as well. Atari ST computers were a mainstay of music production for many years because of their built-in MIDI interface and impressive audio capabilities. Not that Macs couldn't do MIDI, it was just a (significant at the time) added expense.

It's 40+ years later and I haven't had the MockingBoard IIc for a long time. I only reaquired a IIc in early 2025 but the 1-bit audio doesn't. bother me because it's so distinctively Apple II. If I want awesome 8-bit computer audio I can use my Atari or Commodore computers. (I do have a voice systhesis peripheral for my VIC-20 so I'm not missing much.)
 

muse

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The POKEY is arguably better in some areas. The SID was more flexible and better for music all around but I liked the powerful bass and early 80s arcade like sound effects in the Atari computer. If I play Dropzone, then it's always on my Atari 800XL because the sound just makes the game that much better.

@JDW

Most people programmed games on the c64. The motivation behind that was the hardware and young programmers got very excited about it, hence all the cool games, demos and cracktros.

If you want to see a funny Jack Tramiel interview then you need watch this until the end :)

 

JDW

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I didn't have time to watch your linked video until now. The resolution is absolutely horrendous! :LOL: But the content was great. I was absolutely rolling at the very end when Tramiel shook the interviewer's hand and then immediately stood up and walked off the set! He was a busy man! LOL.