Apple IIe Card: Q&A

[JDW]

SOLVED! Solution here​

While working on my IIe Card video, I've run up against a number of things I cannot explain. We had a good discussion here recently, but I feel this needs its own thread with a more specific title, in the proper sub-forum (which is perhaps best suited here rather than in "Peripherals"). My intent is to post questions here about all matters pertaining to the IIe Card, and hopefully many of you who also own the same card can chime in with your experiences.

Please note I am using my IIe Card in a Color Classic Mystic (LC575 motherboard).

My first question is about problems with using the Mac's built-in floppy drive. I am finding that although I can format a real 800K floppy in my internal drive as ProDOS and copy ProDOS files to it in the Finder just fine, when I enter the IIe environment, I can see the disk and read files on it, launch apps from it, and even Rename the volume and files too, but I cannot (1) delete files, (2) format the disk, or (3) copy files to it. And yes, renaming the volume and files is permanent, not temporary.

Here's an example, when I try to delete a file from within A2.Desktop, it throws this error...



Using Apple II System Utilities v3.1, I can also Rename individual files and folders on my floppy (in the Mac's internal drive), and I can perform a Verify on the disk, but I cannot format it or delete files. Makes no sense. If the disk was Read-only, I should not be able to rename files and folders!

There's no indication in the IIe Card manual about the built-in disk drives of the Mac being Read-only when used in the SmartPort slot of the IIe Option Panel (see pic below).



Would any of you who have the IIe Card be able to confirm if you can or cannot format, write to, or delete files on a real ProDOS-formatted 800K disk inserted into your Mac's built-in 3.5" floppy drive?

UPDATE: Here's a new video I made to help you see the problem more clearly...

 

[JDW]

My second question is about something that is probably impossible, but perhaps some of you have some tricks I don't know. Let's say you don't have a BlueSCSI or FloppyEMU or MacSD, but you managed to get a ProDOS *.po disk image onto your vintage Mac. It's 800K in size. You format a real 800K disk as ProDOS using the Mac's built-in drive. You do NOT have any Apple II computers at all, although you do have the IIe Card installed in your Mac. Now here's the question...

How do you mount a *.po disk image on your vintage Mac so you can copy all its files onto a real 800K ProDOS-formatted 3.5" floppy disk inserted in the Mac's built-in floppy drive?

It seems that MacADT cannot do that because it seems to require that you copy from your vintage mac to a real Apple II machine. But again, we are going under the assumption, you don't have any Apple II computers -- just the IIe Card installed in the Mac. And you don't have BlueSCSI's, FloppyEMU's, etc.

 

[retr01]

Hi @JDW,

Are you aware that the ProDOS partitions on the Mac (hard drive, floppy disk drive, etc.) on the Mac are unmounted while you are inside the Apple IIe environment? I wonder if that is the issue when trying to access Mac's internal floppy drive from the IIe environment. Still, I know you added Mac's internal floppy drive to one of the Apple IIe control panel slots. Hmm.

Digging up some answers.

 

[retr01]

Here are some hints on working with ProDOS disks, partitions, etc. One thing that caught my eye was the "ProDOS 2.4.2 Disk" and a caution not to copy ProDOS files to HFS partitions because that will add the resource fork, making the ProDOS files unusable and unreadable for the Apple IIe Card. Also, the Apple HD SC setup program must be a patched version (I understand there are issues with the size, as discussed before).

Here is the presentation from KansasFest 2021, starting at about 3 minutes and 45 seconds into the video, that gives the hints I mentioned. Those are the steps to make it work.

 

[retr01]

About *.PO files are text files that any platform can use for various reasons. PO is Portable Object. Related to ProDOS, *.PO is "ProDOS Order," used as disk images and the *.DSK extension, too.

I found this article and corrected the grammar:

This image is 143360 bytes in size (143488 with MacBinary header). It usually has the *.DSK extension, but it may also be found with the *.PO extension as well. This disk-image stores data in blocks rather than track/sector format (block 0, block 1 -> block 279) - the difference in the structure is due to ProDOS interleaving data in blocks (which equal two DOS sectors). Although newer emulators can distinguish between DO and PO (and thus use both), older emulators strictly require the DO type despite the identical size. ProDOS Order images are still useful since they can be converted back into SDK images by "Nulib" (which is compatible with ShrinkIt on Apple). DO images are not capable of this. PO is an older disk-image format (used more widely with Unix emulators since ShrinkIt archives extracted by "Nulib" produce PO images). Like DO, this format cannot store copy-protected software unless it has been "cracked" first. A basic guide to determining what type is software may be stored in a PO image is whether it can be first duplicated on an Apple with standard copy utilities such as "copya".​

​

On the MACINTOSH - The file must be downloaded in binary mode. None of the Macintosh emulators use the PO format, except for "][ In a Mac", which uses images of non-standard size. To use this format with "][ In a Mac", drop a DO or Copy II+ 7.1 image file onto "Image Converter" by Lazarus I. Long and select the required format; output images will have the correct resource information. The application "Easy Convert" will re-order the sectors of a PO disk image into DOS3.3 Order and automatically set the file type/creator attributes upon output to 'DSK5'/'A2EM' for use with STM. Alternatively, use "ProDOS-Order Converter".​

Source: https://stason.org/TULARC/pc/apple2/emulator/6-1-2-ProDOS-Order-PO-DSK.html

 

[JDW]

Are you aware that the ProDOS partitions on the Mac (hard drive, floppy disk drive, etc.) on the Mac are unmounted while you are inside the Apple IIe environment?

Yes, and you can see that "volume unmounting" occur in the video I included at the end of my opening post. I say "volume" because I have not partitioned any drive. I think the IIe environment views ProDOS Volumes & Partitions the same, but they are technically different things.

Digging up some answers.

I appreciate that very much. And as I told you via PM...

The solution will probably only come when a fellow CC Mystic owner who also has the IIe Card can try to format a floppy disk in their internal drive using the IIe environment. If they can't do it either, it proves there is some bug in Apple's software. But if they CAN format just fine, then perhaps I can work with them to nail down what is different between their system and mine to solve the problem.

Most people replying on the IIe group on FaceBook don't have the same setup as I do. Even if you have the stock Color Classic motherboard and test, it's not the same because I have a 575 board. I cannot swap in my CC stock board because the VGA mod doesn't allow it, and it's a huge amount of work to undo the VGA mod, test, and then redo it again.

...a caution not to copy ProDOS files to HFS partitions because that will add the resource fork, making the ProDOS files unusable and unreadable for the Apple IIe Card.

I've not partitioned anything to date. I am using disk images (volumes) only with a FloppyEMU attached to the Y-cable, with a MacSD and with BlueSCSI. Separately, I am using real 800K disk ProDOS volumes via my host Mac's internal floppy drive. I knew about the HFS issues, which is why I have not been copying files from HFS to ProDOS. But that is kind of a separate thing though. You see, even if I had copied ProDOS files from an HFS volume to my ProDOS 800K disk in the internal drive, that still doesn't explain why I cannot format that same floppy in the IIe environment.

I found this...

You do an amazing job digging up info and posting it here on TinkerDifferent, and I wish to publicly and humbly thank you for that, as I did earlier today via PM.

Speaking of digging, it's a curious thing that we have the likes of the Macintosh Garden, but nothing similar for the Apple II. Sure, there is stuff on archive.org, but no one views archive.org as a Macintosh Garden replacement. I wonder why there's no Apple II Garden. But that would get a bit off topic and is perhaps best for another thread.

 

[retr01]

Yes, and you can see that "volume unmounting" occur in the video I included at the end of my opening post. I say "volume" because I have not partitioned any drive. I think the IIe environment views ProDOS Volumes & Partitions the same, but they are technically different things.

Correct.

I appreciate that very much. And as I told you via PM...

The solution will probably only come when a fellow CC Mystic owner who also has the IIe Card can try to format a floppy disk in their internal drive using the IIe environment. If they can't do it either, it proves there is some bug in Apple's software. But if they CAN format just fine, then perhaps I can work with them to nail down what is different between their system and mine to solve the problem.

Most people replying on the IIe group on FaceBook don't have the same setup as I do. Even if you have the stock Color Classic motherboard and test, it's not the same because I have a 575 board. I cannot swap in my CC stock board because the VGA mod doesn't allow it, and it's a huge amount of work to undo the VGA mod, test, and then redo it again.

I got you, man. That makes perfect sense.

I've not partitioned anything to date. I am using disk images (volumes) only with a FloppyEMU attached to the Y-cable, with a MacSD and with BlueSCSI. Separately, I am using real 800K disk ProDOS volumes via my host Mac's internal floppy drive. I knew about the HFS issues, which is why I have not been copying files from HFS to ProDOS. But that is kind of a separate thing though. You see, even if I had copied ProDOS files from an HFS volume to my ProDOS 800K disk in the internal drive, that still doesn't explain why I cannot format that same floppy in the IIe environment.

You are doing everything correctly. Why can you not use the ProDOS floppy disk in the Apple IIe environment on your Mac? That is puzzling, even to some Apple II veterans who use Apple IIe cards on their Mac LC or a Mac that supports it like your fabled spicy Mystic CC.

You do an amazing job digging up info and posting it here on TinkerDifferent, and I wish to publicly and humbly thank you for that, as I did earlier today via PM.

Thank you.

Speaking of digging, it's a curious thing that we have the likes of the Macintosh Garden, but nothing similar for the Apple II. Sure, there is stuff on archive.org, but no one views archive.org as a Macintosh Garden replacement. I wonder why there's no Apple II Garden. But that would get a bit off topic and is perhaps best for another thread.

Some sites host only Apple II software, but nothing like the Macintosh Garden. Part of the reason is to be compatible with the Apple II computers to download the programs directly.

 

[YMK]

Just a guess here... could the System or some antivirus extension be protecting the floppy's boot blocks?

 

[retr01]

Just a guess here... could the System or some antivirus extension be protecting the floppy's boot blocks?

And there could be other subtle things going on. Hey @JDW, do you have an anti-virus INIT enabled?

What is the reason the Apple IIe Card cannot communicate with your CC's floppy disk drive despite the setup in the IIe Option Panel as a SmartPort in one of the slots? A reboot on the Mac side to ensure it's set in the IIe Option Panel and try again?

 

[JDW]

Just a guess here... could the System or some antivirus extension be protecting the floppy's boot blocks?

I never use Anti-virus on my vintage Macs. Here's my theme song.

I can only try to disable all Control Panels and Extensions other than the required ProDOS extension to see what happens. That will need to wait until this evening though.

After countless hours of testing, my guess is that it could be a bug in the Apple IIe Setup software, but I need a fellow CC Mystic owner who also has the IIe Card to confirm that. My friend @Kay K.M.Mods is perhaps best equipped to do that testing, but I think he told me that his IIe card is damaged. But I will send him a PM about me mailing him my card so he can test it in his Color Classics -- he has quite a few. That would probably be the fastest solution because I'm just not getting replies from other Mystic & IIe Card owners.

 

[JDW]

What is the reason the Apple IIe Card cannot communicate with your CC's floppy disk drive despite the setup in the IIe Option Panel as a SmartPort in one of the slots? A reboot on the Mac side to ensure it's set in the IIe Option Panel and try again?

Just to clarify what I showed in my video, the IIe Card CAN indeed "communicate" with my CC's floppy disk drive. As I said, it can Read just fine. I can Rename anything on the disk just fine. I can even use Erase in AppleWorks to delete all files just fine. But I cannot Format. And I cannot Write individual files to it from within the IIe Environment.

This is why I am totally frustrated. If nothing worked, then I would actually feel better because I would then just say, "fine... the host Mac's internal floppy drive cannot be used at all." But that isn't the case. I can boot off my floppy and even launch DazzleDraw, but I cannot save files to the disk from within DazzleDraw or any other app.

This means that it goes beyond just the "boot blocks." It's something else.

 

[retr01]

This means that it goes beyond just the "boot blocks." It's something else.

Yeah. Something is afoot! (Data's personalization of Sherlock Holmes on Star Trek: TNG)

 

[JDW]

PROBLEM #1 (my opening post) is NOW SOLVED! ​

After spending countless hours on this, the solution was simple, yet non-intuitive. I read that I am supposed to use v2.2.2d1 of the IIe Setup app for the LC575 motherboard, but when I tried older version 2.2.1 just now, it resolved the problem. I can now FORMAT & Write to my Mac's internal floppy drive! And I am not seeing any problems yet with the IIe environment, which raises the question about why 2.2.2d1 was even needed. Then again, perhaps 2.2.2d1 on Macintosh Garden is just botched? v2.2.2d1 works fine except for the built-in floppy drive issue. But I've heard that there was originally a patcher for 2.2.1 to convert it to 2.2.2d1. I just now downloaded the version from Mac GUI here, but the time and date stamps are the same as the one on Macintosh Garden, and I confirmed the Mac GUI app also has the same issue (can't format or write to the built-in floppy drive).



Not sure where that patcher is, but for now, using the older v2.2.1 fixes the problem. AMAZING! This is a tremendous relief to me, although it is troubling that v2.2.2d1 doesn't work as it should.

The only unanswered question right now is my 2nd Post here.

 

[retr01]

That is GREAT NEWS @JDW! Wow.

As I said, the game was afoot. Per your discovery, it appears that the "d" version of the IIe Card setup was a "dud" for your Mystic CC in terms of formatting and writing to the disk. Maybe some lines in the code affected it as it didn't correctly enable format or write while in the IIe environment. Botched, I think so.

Did the file sizes match? Do the checksums match? That would rule out a file transfer problem either up or down stream.

 

[retr01]

The only unanswered question right now is my 2nd Post here.

Okay, the second problem.

I am still not sure about mounting *.PO images, though I think it SHOULD be able to after the IIe setup is applied. Perhaps it was not included the ability to mount .PO images versus the ability to mount .DSK images, as the Mac already can do that without the IIe setup.

The good news is I know that conversion is possible. I stumbled upon the ImageConverter program on Laz's Apple ][ pages. I wonder if that will work to convert from .PO to .DSK and vice versa with that utility.

 

[JDW]

That is GREAT NEWS @JDW! Wow.

As I said, the game was afoot. Per your discovery, it appears that the "d" version of the IIe Card setup was a "dud" for your Mystic CC in terms of formatting and writing to the disk. Maybe some lines in the code affected it as it didn't correctly enable format or write while in the IIe environment. Botched, I think so.

Did the file sizes match? Do the checksums match? That would rule out a file transfer problem either up or down stream.

Kay Koba and I were speaking last night. After I mentioned to him that 2.2.1 of the IIe Startup app resolved the problem, he reminded me of some subtle differences between the built-in floppy drive of the LC575 versus the Color Classic (CC). So even though I am still using the LC575 motherboard, it is technically inside the CC and therefore the fact the floppy drive is not 100% the same mechanism may be why the LC575 version of the IIe Startup app (version 2.2.2d1) has issues formatting and writing files within the IIe environment.

What's interesting is that I am unable to Google up any info whatsoever on this issue, which perhaps shows just how few Mystic users there are out there who also have the IIe Card installed. So we have broken new ground in testing this, and it is something I will mention in my forthcoming video on the IIe Card.

Okay, the second problem...
I stumbled upon the ImageConverter program on Laz's Apple ][ pages. I wonder if that will work to convert from .PO to .DSK and vice versa with that utility.

It looks like it might work, and I will be sure to test it when I have more time today. Thank you for your kindness in finding this useful info!

 

[eric]

A method I've used to convert po to disk copy 4.2 images -
In CiderPress:
Tools -> Disk Image Converter -> Select .po file -> Select Disk Copy 4.2 disk image (.DSK) -> <get it to your vintage mac>.
Write it to the disk with whatever (I used Shrink Wrap 3.5)

 

[JDW]

A method I've used to convert po to disk copy 4.2 images -
In CiderPress:
Tools -> Disk Image Converter -> Select .po file -> Select Disk Copy 4.2 disk image (.DSK) -> <get it to your vintage mac>.
Write it to the disk with whatever (I used Shrink Wrap 3.5)

Thank you for the tip, Eric! It's interesting to see that CiderPress is a Windows-only app. We have some Windows machines at the office, but I am one of those rare Mac users who never purchased even a single Windows computer through the years. Yep, that's right... From my first use of the Mac in 1984 to today in 2022, I've used Windows machines in schools and at the workplace, but I never plunked down a single dime to buy one for myself. I only tested Boot Camp on an Intel Mac once, many years ago, because a co-worker wanted to try it. (He uses parallels these days.) Overall, I think the absence of Bill Gates' handiwork in my life has contributed to lower blood pressure and increased happiness.

 

[retr01]

Kay Koba and I were speaking last night. After I mentioned to him that 2.2.1 of the IIe Startup app resolved the problem, he reminded me of some subtle differences between the built-in floppy drive of the LC575 versus the Color Classic (CC). So even though I am still using the LC575 motherboard, it is technically inside the CC and therefore the fact the floppy drive is not 100% the same mechanism may be why the LC575 version of the IIe Startup app (version 2.2.2d1) has issues formatting and writing files within the IIe environment.

Yeah, that is plausible.

What's interesting is that I am unable to Google up any info whatsoever on this issue, which perhaps shows just how few Mystic users there are out there who also have the IIe Card installed. So we have broken new ground in testing this, and it is something I will mention in my forthcoming video on the IIe Card.

We sure have. I am excited about your upcoming video.

It looks like it might work, and I will be sure to test it when I have more time today. Thank you for your kindness in finding this useful info!

Okay. Fingers crossed.

 

[retr01]

Thank you for the tip, Eric! It's interesting to see that CiderPress is a Windows-only app. We have some Windows machines at the office, but I am one of those rare Mac users who never purchased even a single Windows computer through the years. Yep, that's right... From my first use of the Mac in 1984 to today in 2022, I've used Windows machines in schools and at the workplace, but I never plunked down a single dime to buy one for myself. I only tested Boot Camp on an Intel Mac once, many years ago, because a co-worker wanted to try it. (He uses parallels these days.) Overall, I think the absence of Bill Gates' handiwork in my life has contributed to lower blood pressure and increased happiness.

And what if, in your plausible scenario, a Mac person experiencing a severe case of Apple IIe Card nostalgia does not have a Windows computer nor wants to use Windows?