Help restoring a newly acquired Lisa

[wottle]

I just got back from my 5 hour trek to pick up one of my bucket list items, a Lisa. It came untested, with a ProFile drive, printer, and keyboard (no mouse). I believe I will be able to use an early Mac mouse, correct?

Anyway, I opened it up to remove the battery, only to find it does not have one (I think a good thing); not even a spot for one. Did the original Lisas not have a PRAM battery?

However, everything inside looked remarkably clean, so I decided to try to fire it up. I got a couple of beeps, and nothing on the screen. However, once I adjusted the brightness setting, I was able to get a picture. However, it looks like the vertical hold may be off, or some other issues, as I see the image repeating on the screen and moving vertically.

Could it be as simple as a pots adjustment? Can I do it with a plastic screwdriver while the machine is on? Any tips / tricks (I believe the Lisa would power off if the front plate wasn't installed)?

Other questions: Any place to get the keyboard reference guide in digital format so I can try to print my own? What are the items I should tackle right away: capacitors on specific cards? RIFA cap in power supply?

 

[wottle]

So, a vertical hold adjustment did, in fact, stabilize the image. Unfortunately, as I was tuning the picture, the magic smoke was released. I was really hoping to test out booting before I recapped and replaced the RIFAs. Is not to be, and now my computer room smells wonderful! First time experiencing the RIFA release and it lived up to its reputation. Any recommendations on replacements? Also, is there a caps list for the power supply, video board, etc?

Also, when it did boot up and I could click the continue button, it would throw an error: "Environments window process failed: expert[0] = 23". I'm guessing it is failing to read the hard drive?

 

[luminescentsimian]

Nice, a 2/10 without the Mac screen modification so you can still run all of the original software with a parallel card so you can plug in the Profile. Do you have the internal Widget drive too? I think that the ROM version on the IO board means it will support 800k dual-sided floppy drives.
First thing (after cleaning up the RIFA stench) will probably be to get a pack of foam and foil replacements to fix the keyboard. It's tedious but easy.

 

[retr01]

Hey @wottle, looks like @Mac84 has a recap guide for the Lisa 2/10.

 

[retr01]

And...there are tons of resources out there on the Lisa / Macintosh XL. Some examples:

https://lisa.sunder.net/index.html - A Lisa emulation project which incudes many links to various documentation, pictures, etc.

Apple Service Technical Procedures Lisa/Macintosh XL

Lisa Hardware Manual (1982)

Apple Lisa Computer: Hardware Manual (1983)

Lisa Motherboard Schematics (1981)

Apple Lisa 2 (A6S0200) - Is this Fixable - a thread on the Vintage Computer Federation forums

 

[retr01]

Oh, some folks over at the 68kmla shared their Mouser carts with the capacitors lists:

Lisa AC interference coupling?

Since I recapped my Lisa power supply (1.2 amp), I've noticed that vertical lines on the screen that should be sharp are "squiggly" (like a sine wave, almost), and moving up and down seemingly at random. This interference will change when I turn on a ProFile drive nearby, or even when I turn on...

68kmla.org

For example: https://68kmla.org/bb/index.php?threads/lisa-ac-interference-coupling.35554/post-383552

 

[wottle]

Nice, a 2/10 without the Mac screen modification so you can still run all of the original software with a parallel card so you can plug in the Profile. Do you have the internal Widget drive too? I think that the ROM version on the IO board means it will support 800k dual-sided floppy drives.
First thing (after cleaning up the RIFA stench) will probably be to get a pack of foam and foil replacements to fix the keyboard. It's tedious but easy.

Yeah, appears to not have the square pixel mod. There is a widget drive inside, but I'm guessing it no longer works.

The ProFile smells as if it if had a RIFA cap smoke bomb, and the internal fuse had been blown. Holy cow there are a lot of RIFA caps in the power supply - 9 in total. Once I get the new caps installed and a fresh fuse in place, I hope to get that working.

The keyboard seems fine, but not having booted successfully, I'm not sure if it's working. Any recommendations on the foam to use for best feel and longevity?

 

[luminescentsimian]

TexElec sells newly manufactured replacement kits that work well: https://texelec.com/product/foam-capacitive-pads-keytronic/

 

[Patrick]

don't make my mistake and break the capslock key.

i think there is a spring or something that can easily come out.

 

[Mac84]

Yeah, appears to not have the square pixel mod. There is a widget drive inside, but I'm guessing it no longer works.

The ProFile smells as if it if had a RIFA cap smoke bomb, and the internal fuse had been blown. Holy cow there are a lot of RIFA caps in the power supply - 9 in total. Once I get the new caps installed and a fresh fuse in place, I hope to get that working.

The keyboard seems fine, but not having booted successfully, I'm not sure if it's working. Any recommendations on the foam to use for best feel and longevity?

Nice Lisa!

The Widget drives are notorious for being problematic, but they can be brought back to life (with some success). There are Lisa HD emulators (project info here), and this individual sells them.

FYI the recap guide I have for the Lisa 2/10 is the model with the 1.8 Amp power supply. The PSU says the rating right on it, the other lower amp PSU may have different values, etc. Good luck!

 

[wottle]

OK, some additional questions about the RIFA caps in my ProFile drive: I mistakenly ordered X2 versions of the safety caps instead of the original X rated ones. Can I use X2 rated caps instead? Also, some of the safety caps (two 2200pF RIFAs at C2 and C3; three 0.22uF RIFAs at c12,C19,C26) don't have a safety rating listed on them. Is there a way to figure out suitable replacements?

 

[wottle]

don't make my mistake and break the capslock key.

i think there is a spring or something that can easily come out.

The legs of the caps lock key were broken. The mechanism for holding the key down when on seems to still work. Trying to re-attach the tiny legs has been proving challenging.

 

[wottle]

So, I didn't get any responses on the X1 vs X2 caps, so I put the X2 caps I had into the PSU when all the other caps came in. (I'll swap them out when my X1 rated ones come in, but I figured if the machine can survive a full meltdown of an old X1 cap, if the X2 cap blows, it should be fine. After a full recap of the electrolytic, restoration of the floppy drive, and a good cleaning, I put it back together and fired it up. It did boot, and a few CRT adjustments later and I had a workable picture.

Memory issue​

Unfortunately, it appeared to have some sort of on screen error ("70" displayed below a picture of the memory card). So, seems to be a sort of memory error. I wasn't sure which memory card was throwing the error, so I figured I would try to start up without either card installed. I didn't notice it at the time, but the icon of the memory card actually showed "MEM2", which was trying to let me know it was the card in slot 2. However, with no memory installed ,the machine actually booted, and for the first time I saw and heard activity out of the Widget drive. Unfortunately, the display was just a garbled gray checkered screen. I assume maybe the Lisa uses the memory boards for video memory?

I then tried the memory boards one at a time. I tried the second board alone first, received the same "70" memory error. When I tried with the first memory board in, I was able to get further, with an error about my lack of keyboard showing up, followed by a lot of activity from the widget drive. And I actually got a Lisa Office System 3.1. The Widget drive has LOS 3.1 installed and it is functional!

So, question #1 is how to diagnose the memory error and hopefully get the board working again.

Keyboard status ​

While it was booted up, I did test out the keyboard. Unfortunately, it appears all keys except f and g were not working. I have a set of foam and tape to replace the capacitive foam pieces in each of the keys. Hopefully that will restore it fully. I am looking to get a mac2lisa adapter which will let me use my Mac Plus keyboard with the Lisa, which will be closer to the original look, but with keyboards that are less rare. I'll try to keep the Lisa one more protected.

Floppy Drive​

Note on the floppy restoration: I've never had one be completely seized before, but literally every moving part was completely glued in place. With a combination of applying alcohol and some prying to get it into the space between parts, I was able to get it ejecting and receiving floppies pretty well. I haven't yet tried to insert a floppy, as I don't have any 400k floppies. I think I have some double sided 800k disks, which I assume should work, as the 400k drive will simply ignore the top side of the floppy? I was trying to use a FloppyEmu with it, but had trouble plugging it in as I didn't have a female to email adapter to use the cable already in the device. So I had to remove the top of the floppyEmu case and plug the cable from the Lisa directly into the emu. Unfortunately, I was unable to get it to boot from any of the disk images. I'll dig into that more later, but I likely won't use the emu with it just because without an external port, it's pretty inconvenient to try to use it with the Lisa.

Monitor adjustment​

One issue that was there before the recap is that the horizontal alignment of the image appears to be pushed too far right. This is causing the image to overflow and reflect back over the image on the right side to the screen. I tried adjusting all the pots on the video board, but none seem to control that. Are there more adjustments for that, or am I going to need to fiddle with the tabs on the back of the neck of the CRT?

Shut down monitor activity​

Another thing that was a bit concerning is when the shut down process completes, the image fades to black, and there as large click sound, followed by a bright white vertical line in the center of the screen. Is that normal, or should I be concerned about the wear and tear on the CRT?

ProFile Drive​

Up next is to finish recapping the ProFile drive's power supply. I've got all the electrolytic done, and am just waiting on the safety caps. Should be here tomorrow. I'm hoping that maybe the ProFile drive is still working and might even have MacWorks on it. We'll see.


So to recap, a few questions I'd love some advice on:

1. Any good way to find bad memory chips on the memory board?
2. How do I adjust the horizontal location of the image on the CRT?
3. Should I worried about the shutdown CRT behavior in the video above?

 

[Patrick]

Behind the monitor is a small board. the video board with 4 pots. To get access you take the top cover off.

This is also an area to be careful because its RIGHT next to the tube. (its in the same cage as the monitor)

your other questions are good questions i hope to hear the answers too my self !

 

[wottle]

Behind the monitor is a small board. the video board with 4 pots. To get access you take the top cover off.

This is also an area to be careful because its RIGHT next to the tube. (its in the same cage as the monitor)

your other questions are good questions i hope to hear the answers too my self !

Yeah, I adjusted those and it did not work. But I was reading elsewhere that there is glue on them that even if the glue is broken, the blue remaining on the adjustment screws can cause it to prevent the pots from adjusting. I think there is actually a horizontal adjustment there, it just wasn't working. I'm going to try to remove all the glue remaining and see if the adjustments start working. Thanks!

 

[ScutBoy]

The "click and line" seems to be normal on the Lisa I have and others I've been in contact with.

Great progress on getting your machine functional!

 

[Mac84]

Another thing that was a bit concerning is when the shut down process completes, the image fades to black, and there as large click sound, followed by a bright white vertical line in the center of the screen. Is that normal, or should I be concerned about the wear and tear on the CRT?

This is part of the design of the Lisa system. I believe a relay simply cuts off the power, thus the not so graceful shutdown.

Every Lisa I've seen has done this. It is a bit jarring, but that's how it was designed.

 

[wottle]

Appreciate the confirmation on the screen shut down experience.

I never got any answers on the X1 vx X2 caps. I was even further confused when the X1 rated caps that I found on Mouser through their search arrived. In the packaging was a variety of X2 and Y2 markings on the RIFA caps. I double checked the products I ordered, and sure enough, the mouser safety rating field shows X1. Of course, when I looked at the spec sheets, they showed the rating matching the markings on the caps. So, I have no idea what is going on, but there were no other X1 rated caps in the capacitance, voltages, and sizes I needed. So I tried to do more research, but I am not an electrical engineer, so most of what I found didn't make it clear to me whether the caps would be safe / functional in my ProFile drive and Lisa PSU.

There were a lot of posts talking about RIFA caps and the suitability of various capacitors. I also found this article, which explained things pretty well: https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/technical-articles/safety-capacitor-class-x-and-class-y-capacitors/.

The key parts of the article I took away was these:
"Whereas X2 and Y2 caps are appropriate for household applications, X1 and Y1 safety capacitors are used in industrial settings. As an example, a subclass X1 safety capacitor would be used for an industrial lighting ballast that is connected to a 3-phase line."

"A Y2 capacitor can safely be used in place of an X2 capacitor, but an X2 capacitor should not be used in place of a Y2 capacitor. This is because, although an X2-type capacitor would work and filter noise sufficiently, it would not meet the line-to-ground safety standards. Y2 safety capacitors are more robust, are able to withstand higher peak impulse voltages, and are designed to fail open as opposed to failing short."

My takeaway is that I should be OK with the capacitors I bought. One part that specifically threw me was when I purchased, I had filtered on X1 safety rated caps. When my caps arrived, many were marked as Y2 caps. Does that mean the Y2 caps are safety rated for as high voltage as the X1 caps. The filtering should work just as well, but the difference is in their failure modes. So if my caps fail, they will fail open. It seems like if the capacitor failed, to fail open would be better, no?

Please correct my understanding if it is wrong.

I was able to run the Lisa just now for a few hours and didn't observe any issues. The ProDrive seems to power on OK, but the ready light never comes on steady. I suspect the internal drive is bad and is causing it not to indicate its readiness. Thanks all!

 

[ried]

What a lovely old Lisa 2/10. My experience was much the same as yours, having found a 2/10 and rehabilitating it with all of its quirks (Widget, etc).

These are truly incredible old machines, and a superset of the features that would ship on the slimmed down and de-featured Macintosh a year later (the multi-tasking LOS, protected memory, etc). Woz said that Apple didn't get the features of the Lisa back until it acquired NeXT and released Mac OS X.

You are correct that the ProFile drive is failing its internal start-up tests, which is why the red LED doesn't stay illuminated. Very common. Most of these drives have died by now. If you haven't seen @Mac84's video on how he rehabilitated his ProFile, it's worth watching.

Error 70 is either a bad RAM chip on the memory board or a problem with how the board is seated on the motherboard. Have you cleaned the contacts on both sides, the memory board and the socket, with i.e. Deoxit? Might be worth a try. Does it always fail in either memory slot? If so, start looking for a replacement board or, if you're skilled with a soldering iron, investigate a chip replacement.

800K floppy disks will work just fine in your 400K floppy drive. You're right, the drive has no idea the other side of the floppy media exists.

The fact that you have a working Widget hard disk is remarkable, so congratulations. They are noisy as can be, however, and if you get tired of that you can replace it with a silent solid state equivalent called an X/ProFile. Truly a magical piece of equipment.

Don't worry about the X1 vs X2 caps

 

[wottle]

What a lovely old Lisa 2/10. My experience was much the same as yours, having found a 2/10 and rehabilitating it with all of its quirks (Widget, etc).

These are truly incredible old machines, and a superset of the features that would ship on the slimmed down and de-featured Macintosh a year later (the multi-tasking LOS, protected memory, etc). Woz said that Apple didn't get the features of the Lisa back until it acquired NeXT and released Mac OS X.

You are correct that the ProFile drive is failing its internal start-up tests, which is why the red LED doesn't stay illuminated. Very common. Most of these drives have died by now. If you haven't seen @Mac84's video on how he rehabilitated his ProFile, it's worth watching.

Error 70 is either a bad RAM chip on the memory board or a problem with how the board is seated on the motherboard. Have you cleaned the contacts on both sides, the memory board and the socket, with i.e. Deoxit? Might be worth a try. Does it always fail in either memory slot? If so, start looking for a replacement board or, if you're skilled with a soldering iron, investigate a chip replacement.

800K floppy disks will work just fine in your 400K floppy drive. You're right, the drive has no idea the other side of the floppy media exists.

The fact that you have a working Widget hard disk is remarkable, so congratulations. They are noisy as can be, however, and if you get tired of that you can replace it with a silent solid state equivalent called an X/ProFile. Truly a magical piece of equipment.

Don't worry about the X1 vs X2 caps

It has been fun to play around with. Unfortunately, the Widget drive seems to be refusing to work now (I knew I was on borrowed time). I've ordered a Cameo/Aphid parallel port HD emulator from http://www.arcanebyte.com/harddrive-product/ to try to get a more stable hard drive situation. I was looking at the X/ProFile and considered it, but it was a bit pricey, especially considering I had just spent a good bit on the Lisa. But I like the idea of the internal solution that would be a good match to the stock functionality.

I'll check out the ProFile restoration video.

I did hit all the edge connections for the expansion slots and the CPU, I/O, and memory boards. I also inspected the edge of the connectors and there was minimal oxidation or corrosion. I may give it a bit more attention, though. It did fail in either memory slot, so I suspect it is the memory board and not the slot or the main board.

And thanks for the assurance on the RIFA caps.