Immutable Characteristic: Transness

[badferday]

Greetings all,

I'm asking that "gender identity", "gender expression" and "sex" be added the to anti-discrimination section of the CoC. These are all distinct immutable characteristics that, in combination with the already listed "sexual orientation" and "gender", depict the 5 areas of discrimination that SOGIESC* people face. For the majority of people, these areas all line up. But for the 10%** of the population that self-reports some form of gender and/or sexual diversity, this is not the case.

Here are the benefits of my suggestion:

1) It adds to the normalizing of the existence of queer people - especially trans and non-binary people. It may seem an abstract benefit, but when clubs and organizations explicitely telegraph acceptance, they are contributing to the improving zeitgeist. This is critical at a time when we are facing increased attacks just for existing.
2) From my perspective, it helps a lot when I see the above items listed, because it tells me that my transness won't be allowed to become an issue in a given space.
3) Newly out or newly discovering trans people would be particularly affirmed to see their existence is acknowledged. This may seem small, but is sooooo critical in the early stages of discovery and coming out.

Please don't be shy to ask question; questions don't offend me. If anything, inquisitiveness makes me happy because it signals openness.

Thanks!

- Katrina

* This is the newly emerging alternative to LGBTQ+, much more thoroughly covering all immutable characteristics sex and gender. It stands for "sexual orientation, gender identity, gender expression and sex charateristics".

** This number is increasing with each subsequent generation, as societal acceptance broadens. Some of the latest studies show it as high as 30%!!

 

[David Cook]

Similar to nearly everyone on this forum, I enjoy talking about old computers and I am kind to others. If you are like that, then you are my friend.

This hobby takes me away from the stresses of politics, social issues, and global conflicts. I would be less likely to participate in any group where I was exposed to that from any side.

Be cautious in regards to a code of conduct. It starts becoming a situation where some people are offended by what it doesn’t include and some people are offended by what it does include. The code of conduct can constrain the size of the community.

I encourage simplification: “Stay on topic. Be considerate to others.”

 

[badferday]

Similar to nearly everyone on this forum, I enjoy talking about old computers and I am kind to others. If you are like that, then you are my friend.

This hobby takes me away from the stresses of politics, social issues, and global conflicts. I would be less likely to participate in any group where I was exposed to that from any side.

Be cautious in regards to a code of conduct. It starts becoming a situation where some people are offended by what it doesn’t include and some people are offended by what it does include. The code of conduct can constrain the size of the community.

I encourage simplification: “Stay on topic. Be considerate to others.”

Thanks for your thoughts on my request. And if something in my reply comes across with an upset or disrespectful tone, it's because words are only a small part of communication. In the absense of facial expression and vocal tone, I want to let you know I'm responding with an understanding and inquisitive mindset.

Here's my take. Keeping an up to date list of immutable characteristics is not a matter of politics. It is a matter of inclusion and creating a safe and welcoming space. Yes, the forum is here to have fun and work on old computers. Updating the list of immutable characteristics does not detract from that in any way. There already is such a list, and that didn't deter you from joining. I'm simply proposing updating that list.

As to your concern about participation, I don't think that is an issue. As you pointed out, it's a binary - some people object to inclusion, some people object to exclusion. What's certain is that the world is moving in a more inclusive direction; and that group has been in the majority (and still growing) for some decades now. So I would suggest that this type of update will lead to a net gain in members.

As to the simplification, and I'm not making assumptions about any of your immutable characteristics, simplification doesn't work for marginalized communities. Visibility does. And making those additions to the CoC contributes to visibility.

 

[David Cook]

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. One of the things I've learned to value the most in life is when someone is willing to share their perspective with you, particularly on deep and sensitive topics. There is no greater human gift.

And if something in my reply comes across with an upset or disrespectful tone

Not at all. Your post is genuine and positive.

- David

P.S. Good luck on your SE/30 hunt!

 

[badferday]

That hunt is something else! I'm not even looking for a functional one! Just a complete one. Imma do a reloaded build, and only need the case for a 3D scan for an industrial case design.

But these listings on eBay are like... out of pocket expensive! Someone needs to check these sellers' temperatures before the post goes up.

 

[badferday]

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. One of the things I've learned to value the most in life is when someone is willing to share their perspective with you, particularly on deep and sensitive topics. There is no greater human gift.



Not at all. Your post is genuine and positive.

- David

P.S. Good luck on your SE/30 hunt!

On, and thanks for your affirming reply re: sharing perspective.

 

[YMK]

This hobby takes me away from the stresses of politics, social issues, and global conflicts. I would be less likely to participate in any group where I was exposed to that from any side.

Agreed. Social issues are inseparable from politics, which this forum doesn't entertain.

This is a computer forum, not a hugbox.

 

[badferday]

Agreed. Social issues are inseparable from politics, which this forum doesn't entertain.

This is a computer forum, not a hugbox.

Asking for a change to the CoC to reflect more recently identified marginalized groups doesn't have to be viewed through a political lens. It very much is a Bill & Ted "be awesome to each other" change that can be made so that new trans/enby people joining see that they ALSO matter in addition to the other already listed marginalized groups. It doesn't require a historical, political or economic deep dive. It can be a surface-deep gesture.

As to the hugbox comment, it's a bit dismissive. Is that necessary when someone is asking for an affirming change to the CoC? Inclusivity doesn't mean requiring that issues be regularly discussed and there be a space created in the forums for this topic. Inclusivity simply means recognizing the existence of a marginalized group.

Changes like the one I am requesting is how we built and continue to grow visibility.

 

[YMK]

Asking for a change to the CoC to reflect more recently identified marginalized groups doesn't have to be viewed through a political lens. It very much is a Bill & Ted "be awesome to each other" change that can be made so that new trans/enby people joining see that they ALSO matter in addition to the other already listed marginalized groups. It doesn't require a historical, political or economic deep dive. It can be a surface-deep gesture.

As to the hugbox comment, it's a bit dismissive. Is that necessary when someone is asking for an affirming change to the CoC? Inclusivity doesn't mean requiring that issues be regularly discussed and there be a space created in the forums for this topic. Inclusivity simply means recognizing the existence of a marginalized group.

Changes like the one I am requesting is how we built and continue to grow visibility.

Nobody here asked for any of your personal information. You broadcasted it, then demanded protection from it becoming "an issue".

You've been here all of two weeks and have created at least two threads for modifying the code of conduct to your liking.

Whether it's an internet forum, a social group or workplace, showing up and demanding things change to suit you is not going to win you friends.

This site is not a springboard for your pet social causes.

Identity politics are still politics.

 

[badferday]

I never demanded any protection. And I'm not demanding this change be made, I'm suggesting. Demanding has a negative connotation; it isn't charitable to use negative connotations when debating. I was directed to post my suggestion here by someone on the board when I suggest this change via DM. It's here to prompt discussion.

And being recognized is not a pet social cause for marginalized people. Please don't be dismissive to me again.

As to your comment on politics, again, this can be a surface deep "being kind to each other" thing. Kindness doesn't need to be politically motivated. And since you've mentioned politics twice now, I'm going to point out that marginalized people don't ask for their existences to be politicized. The politicization of identity is something DONE TO marginalized people. That's as far as I'm going to go on that topic, as I'm not trying to bring politics to a forum where it's specifically not permitted. But I had to say that much, since you mentioned politics twice.

 

[Yoda]

... It very much is a Bill & Ted "be awesome to each other" ...

Since the code of conduct says exactly this, and it is inclusive of everyone, it seems to do the job perfectly well without changing or expanding on it. It certainly isn't clear to me how you can improve on 'be awesome to each other' as a guiding principle of excellence. Indeed, I wish I'd thought of it myself.

Addressing your comments directly, since you have discussed how 'politicized' you believe the existence of marginalized people has become, I wonder if you can offer examples of how this has happened here, in this forum, which would show why a change to the code of conduct is needed? I am not aware of such examples, which means that in my experience and to my mind, the code of conduct as it stands seems to be doing the job it needs to. If the changes proposed are for wider protections due to more broad societal change, then it might help if you explain in what ways the current code may fail us. In that way, the board might be able to consider a range of ways they could address your conduct-related concerns.

 

[Kai Robinson]

This issue will be discussed in the upcoming board meeting - any amendments will be announced after this. We recognise that along with a lot of policy - we do need to sometimes flesh out or amend previous guidelines.

Thank you to @badferday for raising this - we value our membership giving us feedback.

Just as a friendly reminder, as far as a wider discussion on the issues - maybe this isn't the best place to do it - please lets keep this on-topic in the constraints of the original request.

 

[Certificate of Excellence]

Since the code of conduct says exactly this, and it is inclusive of everyone, it seems to do the job perfectly well without changing or expanding on it. It certainly isn't clear to me how you can improve on 'be awesome to each other' as a guiding principle of excellence. Indeed, I wish I'd thought of it myself.

Addressing your comments directly, since you have discussed how 'politicized' you believe the existence of marginalized people has become, I wonder if you can offer examples of how this has happened here, in this forum, which would show why a change to the code of conduct is needed? I am not aware of such examples, which means that in my experience and to my mind, the code of conduct as it stands seems to be doing the job it needs to. If the changes proposed are for wider protections due to more broad societal change, then it might help if you explain in what ways the current code may fail us. In that way, the board might be able to consider a range of ways they could address your conduct-related concerns.

This perspective makes great sense to me. Examples of the existing code failing our community as it stands is a great first step in understanding if there is any problem, systemic or otherwise that needs to be addressed at all. To my knowledge, there have been no direct examples of minority groups being discriminated, harassed, ignored or marginalized here which speaks to the intellectual and moral caliber of folks here. We are fundamentally good, caring people.

Acknowledging and affirming the existence of everyone here is already the goal and we do it to each other every single day by contributing and participating in our community. That is how we affirm each other. Affirmation IMHO is not achieved through bylaw amendments, it's done by saying hello, getting to know each other and sharing what we choose to share.

My thoughts anyhow.

 

[Certificate of Excellence]

Similar to nearly everyone on this forum, I enjoy talking about old computers and I am kind to others. If you are like that, then you are my friend.

This hobby takes me away from the stresses of politics, social issues, and global conflicts. I would be less likely to participate in any group where I was exposed to that from any side.

Be cautious in regards to a code of conduct. It starts becoming a situation where some people are offended by what it doesn’t include and some people are offended by what it does include. The code of conduct can constrain the size of the community.

I encourage simplification: “Stay on topic. Be considerate to others.”

Agreed. Our lives are inundated with these stresses. Tinker Different is an amazing space where none of that junk is brought into the conversation. We're just friends talking about tinkering (and alot of computer stuff) and for me, that is such a fantastic gift. That is why I come here. Even MacRumors forum which I am a long time lurker and participant has an off topic section that just rages with gross toxic political vitriol which frankly, just makes me sad and is a huge turn off. TD has intentionally steered clear of this and I for one adore the culture of openness that has grown from it.

I hope you hang out and come to see the folks here for what they are and what we collectively; culturally have built sans the unending identifying, boxing in of identity political bylaw amendment. It is my opinion that it is not needed and would be counterproductive to the moral fiber of our community.

 

[Patrick]

I feel like i want to point out that most often. only the people who are being discriminated, harassed or marginalized would even realize it is happening.

We tend to really know what a bad thing happens to ourselves, personally. But its almost impossible to notice when it's happening to others.

Also, it takes a lot of courage to bring it up if you feel like you have been. and often times its social suicide if you do. So it's really easy for this stuff to go on unnoticed in communities.

I'm not saying i know its happening. But I am aware that i'm part of the least discriminated, harassed, ignored or marginalized group. and as such, i'm also the least aware of this happening. Because its never happened to me.

..
i don't think adding a few extra groups to the list has to become a political thing. Its a way for us to really say that we value diversity and all viewpoints.

P.s. i can think of an example right now. but i don't want to point it out because, it wasn't directed at me(not my place), and i think it could lead to too much name calling(or not being civil). Something I think everybody on this forum would like to avoid.

 

[Certificate of Excellence]

I feel like i want to point out that most often. only the people who are being discriminated, harassed or marginalized would even realize it is happening.

We tend to really know what a bad thing happens to ourselves, personally. But its almost impossible to notice when it's happening to others.

Also, it takes a lot of courage to bring it up if you feel like you have been. and often times its social suicide if you do. So it's really easy for this stuff to go on unnoticed in communities.

I'm not saying i know its happening. But I am aware that i'm part of the least discriminated, harassed, ignored or marginalized group. and as such, i'm also the least aware of this happening. Because its never happened to me.

..
i don't think adding a few extra groups to the list has to become a political thing. Its a way for us to really say that we value diversity and all viewpoints.

P.s. i can think of an example right now. but i don't want to point it out because, it wasn't directed at me(not my place), and i think it could lead to too much name calling(or not being civil). Something I think everybody on this forum would like to avoid.

Then that is what we can say.

We value diversity and all viewpoints.

I think this is great. It represents everyone, all groups, equally. It has a starting point ie; We as in Tinker Different value diversity as in everyone, and all view points as in everyones perspective has value. This is much more impactful and valuable to the community. I want to speak to the lens of the community, all of us. That is how our bylaws should be structured and written. It should speak to & address everyone at all times. There is no need, at all IMO to go down the road of listing group identity. Regardless of what group you may fit in to, we all can understand the ethical underpinnings & expectations of "We value diversity and all viewpoints." or "be awesome to each other". We all understand what this means collectively as a community and individually in our behavior.

My opinion.

 

[badferday]

I feel like i want to point out that most often. only the people who are being discriminated, harassed or marginalized would even realize it is happening.

We tend to really know what a bad thing happens to ourselves, personally. But its almost impossible to notice when it's happening to others.

Also, it takes a lot of courage to bring it up if you feel like you have been. and often times its social suicide if you do. So it's really easy for this stuff to go on unnoticed in communities.

I'm not saying i know its happening. But I am aware that i'm part of the least discriminated, harassed, ignored or marginalized group. and as such, i'm also the least aware of this happening. Because its never happened to me.

..
i don't think adding a few extra groups to the list has to become a political thing. Its a way for us to really say that we value diversity and all viewpoints.

P.s. i can think of an example right now. but i don't want to point it out because, it wasn't directed at me(not my place), and i think it could lead to too much name calling(or not being civil). Something I think everybody on this forum would like to avoid.

This x 1000! Thank you, Patrick.

Generally, the closer to the societal default ones identity is, the less they recognize the need for these sorts of things. Nine times out of ten, it's not malicious; you've explained the underlying mechanism for the lack of recognition perfectly. I really admire you putting yourself in the shoes of someone that sits far outside that default.

To put a bow on my participation in this thread, I want to say I appreciate all the good faith input/questions towards my suggestion. And I urge people to consider this: How much does it hurt an institution or group to recognize a marginalized community? Now consider how much it hurts that marginalize community to not be recognized, and contrast that to the potential for the recognition to help. I propose mine is a suggestion which has no downside, and only the possibility of upsides.

And with that, I release this suggestion to the wind.... to the wind!

- Katrina

 

[Patrick]

I don't like your tone right now YMK.

this isn't the place for gender politics.

this isn't gender politics. its about being excellent to each other.

 

[trag]

I find the point at which someone starts demanding that I adjust what pronouns I use to be sexual harassment.

I have no interest in what specific gender other people are. Forcing that awareness on me for the purposes of serving up "proper" pronouns immediately sexualizes the conversation and creates a hostile, uncomfortable environment.

I don't need to know a persons "gender" in order to treat them well.

 

[3lectr1c]

Could it be because you've been banned from there several times and know you'll be discovered if you do?

I’m only aware of one such individual who has been “banned from there several times” and I can say with confidence that OP is not the same person.