PowerMac 6500 PCI graphics card options? (Feeling overwhelmed)

ouroboros

ouroboros

New Tinkerer
Nov 29, 2022
25
8
3
I recently purchased a very cheap and gutted 6500. I'd love to add a graphics card, but when looking online for resources, I'm met with a lot of vague card names. ATi Rage is one, but when I search I see 128, 128 pro, PCI and AGP versions. Radeon 7000 is another, but apparently the G5 had that card...is it compatible with a PC that came out in 1998?? Again, I can only find AGP version and not PCI does that even matter? I'm completely lost.

I want to make sure I'm getting a mac compatible card that would run under OS9. If anyone has experience in graphics cards for this particular model, I'd appreciate a helping hand. I'm also planning on getting a G3 l2 cache upgrade card if that affects anything.
 
Fizzbinn

Fizzbinn

Tinkerer
Nov 29, 2021
189
183
43
Charlottesville, VA
The 6500 has two 7" PCI slots so you can't use AGP cards in it, only 7" PCI graphics cards. Are you going for multiple displays and/or an upgrade from the 6500's built-in ATI 3D Rage II with 2MB of VRAM? On their own the built in graphics aren't bad in my opinion, a nice step up from the 6400.

I *think* ATI Rage 128, ATI Radeon, ATI Radeon 7000, ATI Radeon 9200 are the most "common" models you might find with a 7" PCI graphics card form factor. I also think you'd want one that was sold as a Mac version, otherwise PC versions likely would need to re-flashed firmware to work in a Mac.
 
retr01

retr01

Senior Tinkerer
Jun 6, 2022
2,473
1
796
113
Utah, USA
retr01.com
Hi @ouroboros! :)

According to Apple, the 6500 has graphics acceleration built-in:

Your computer has the following video and graphic capabilities built into the logic board:​
  • ATI 3D RAGE II 64-bit graphics and multimedia accelerator chip
  • 2 MB synchronous graphic RAM (SGRAM)
  • Hardware acceleration of 2-dimensional (2D) QuickDraw graphics and video—accelerates tasks such as scrolling, text and graphic display, and screen redraw
  • Hardware acceleration of video for full-screen, full-motion, TV-quality playback of QuickTime movies—accelerates and improves full-screen display of certain QuickTime movies and enhances video capture when used with an optional video input card
Source: https://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Manuals/desktops/0309720APM6500TS.PDF

However, it only has 2 MB of video memory. For better graphics performance, you can get a PCI card that is up to 6.88 inches and within the power tolerances as specified by Apple as listed on page 13 in the above document.

A 64 bit or 128 bit PCI graphics card compatible with the 6500 will be fine as long as there are drivers for the operating system you want to use MacOS 7.6, 8, or 9. The more bits and memory, the better performance. Those cards also vary with the frequencies of the GPU that affect performance as well. The rest is personal preference.

There are information out there as to which cards. I believe there should be reviews of PCI graphics cards for the 1996 through 1998 PCI-based Power Macs in one of the Macintosh magazines such as MacUser and MacWorld.
 
Last edited:
AvadonDragon

AvadonDragon

Tinkerer
Jan 27, 2023
52
50
18
Tennessee
I noticed you've got an iMac Graphite 600mhz listed in your signature. For reference it uses the ATI Rage 128 Ultra with 16 MB of VRAM.

I guess the question is what you want. If you want the best possible video card then that's probably the Radeon 9200. But unless your G3 upgrade is crazy awesome you might not be able to play a game that could actually use that card.

It is likely going to be difficult to find an actual Mac video card. You'll have to figure out which PC cards can be easily flashed with Mac firmware.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ouroboros and retr01
retr01

retr01

Senior Tinkerer
Jun 6, 2022
2,473
1
796
113
Utah, USA
retr01.com
For pre-G3 Power Macintosh, including the 6500, the "System 7 Today" site provides some insight on which PCI graphics cards:
  • LOW END - ixMicro TwinTurbo M8 (also known as 128)
  • MID RANGE - ATI Rage 128
  • HIGH END - original Radeon PCI and the Radeon 7000 PCI
​
This web site provides graphic card drivers for the classic MacOS from 7.5.2 to 9.2.2, so you will see the names of the other cards, most are PCI while others are not.

Ati drivers for Mac OS Classic

gona.mactar.hu gona.mactar.hu

Low End Mac lists the PCI cards:

PCI Video Cards | Low End Mac

lowendmac.com

For the Power Mac 6500, it seems the ATI Radeon PCI (Mac Edition) is 7". Not sure about the other graphics cards if they meet the 6.88" specification by Apple.
 
Last edited:
retr01

retr01

Senior Tinkerer
Jun 6, 2022
2,473
1
796
113
Utah, USA
retr01.com
There are ATI Rage 128 PCI graphics card for the Mac, available for sale:

This one has 32 MB of video memory

www.ebay.com

Ati Rage Pro 128 Pc And Mac Edition PCI | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Ati Rage Pro 128 Pc And Mac Edition PCI at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
www.ebay.com

This one may not have 32 MB of video memory, maybe 16 MB since two memory IC areas on the card are unpopulated:

www.ebay.com

Vintage ATI Rage 128 109-57400-00 PCI Graphics Card for Power Mac G3 G4 | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Vintage ATI Rage 128 109-57400-00 PCI Graphics Card for Power Mac G3 G4 at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
www.ebay.com

EDIT: those cards ARE AGP, NOT PCI! Whoops. Looks like it is actually harder to find one like @AvadonDragon was saying. Oh boy.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: ouroboros
6

68Krescue

New Tinkerer
Jun 23, 2022
15
7
3
ouroboros said:
I recently purchased a very cheap and gutted 6500. I'd love to add a graphics card, but when looking online for resources, I'm met with a lot of vague card names. ATi Rage is one, but when I search I see 128, 128 pro, PCI and AGP versions. Radeon 7000 is another, but apparently the G5 had that card...is it compatible with a PC that came out in 1998?? Again, I can only find AGP version and not PCI does that even matter? I'm completely lost.

I want to make sure I'm getting a mac compatible card that would run under OS9. If anyone has experience in graphics cards for this particular model, I'd appreciate a helping hand. I'm also planning on getting a G3 l2 cache upgrade card if that affects anything.
Click to expand...
To make sure you get a 'Mac compatible card that would run under OS9' source one that has either the Mac compatible DB15 (2 row connector) or the word Mac on the card/label with a DE15 (3 row) connector.
Most Mac PCI video cards I have seen will have both DB15 (2 row connector) and the DE15 (3 row connector), or the word 'Mac' emblazoned somewhere.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the the first eBay card that retr01 linked will not work unless it is flashed. I would ask that seller to post a pic of the back side. Dollars to donuts, it won't say 'Mac' anywhere.
Also, the second eBay card that retr01 linked definitely won't work. Although it is listed as PCI, the card shown in the photograph is an AGP card, not PCI.
Good luck in your search.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: ouroboros and retr01
retr01

retr01

Senior Tinkerer
Jun 6, 2022
2,473
1
796
113
Utah, USA
retr01.com
  • Like
Reactions: ouroboros
ouroboros

ouroboros

New Tinkerer
Nov 29, 2022
25
8
3
I was not expecting so many replies! Thank you to all who lended me a hand. I think I have a better grasp on what I’d like. My ultimate goal would be to play Diablo II (one of my favorites) on this system. Im hoping it is doable.
It sounds like I can get the 128 pro if I can find a Mac version that is pci.
Thank you for also clarifying that agp would not be compatible with this system. That is very helpful as well.
I may need to play the long game of waiting for a card to pop up in my price range and also be able to easily spot the difference between a pci and an agp card by their physical traits.

thanks again to everyone for their help so far!
 
  • Like
Reactions: retr01
J

joevt

Tinkerer
Mar 5, 2023
73
32
18
What about Nvidia graphics cards? Which have 2D/3D acceleration for Mac OS 9? For Power Macs, maybe only older Nvidia GPUs support OS 9 and the newer ones are only good for OS X though some can be used in OS 9 for 2D stuff? I wish there was a database to rank the cards in each OS.

Newer Nvidia cards like the 6600 may require a patched firmware for Old World Macs.
https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...l-work-in-a-beige-power-macintosh-g3.2303689/
 
ouroboros

ouroboros

New Tinkerer
Nov 29, 2022
25
8
3
wottle said:
Save that L2 G3 upgrade card for a Twentieth Anniversary Mac! :)
Click to expand...
I can't even find a L2 G3 for a reasonable price, let alone a TAM!!

robin-fo said:
I can recommend the Radeon 7000: https://68kmla.org/bb/index.php?threads/driving-a-23“-dvi-cinema-display-from-a-powermac-8500.43187/
Click to expand...
Thank you! I will keep that on my list to look out for. While I would rather not have to go through the process of flashing the bios of a PC card, it seems like the cheaper option, and I feel like my skill level is on par with what it would take. Thank you for the recommendation!
 
I

ItAllStartedWithAnLCIII

New Tinkerer
Oct 10, 2022
1
0
1
I'm in the same boat with my PM6500: I have tried both a 3dfx Voodoo 2 (sold to me on EBAY as Mac-specific) and an ATI Rage 128 (from a B&W G3) but was not able to get either to work in 3D accelerated applications (e.g. Quake I, Tomb Raider).
  • With the Voodoo 2 I patched the internal graphics through the Voodoo card, and I installed the relevant 3dfx drivers. While it boots and works fine with 2D graphics, I am getting artifacts on the screen (random triangles and patches) when running the 3dfx test application or Quake. I don't have any way to test this card in another application, as I don't have another PCI PM, so this may be a hardware problem.
  • With the Rage 128 I installed the latest Mac OS classic drivers from the website listed above ( Ati drivers for Mac OS Classic ). The computer boots normally and I get 2D graphics, but 3D applications end up crashing the OS. I feel this may be a conflict where the OS doesn't know how to deal with the internal ATI and PCI-based ATI graphics. Is there a way to disable the internal graphics?
@ouroboros - please let us know how you get on with your graphics cards.
If anyone else has any thoughts on what might be going on in my case, please let me know.
 
Stinkerton18

Stinkerton18

Moderator
Staff member
Aug 18, 2022
60
46
18
ouroboros said:
Thank you! I will keep that on my list to look out for. While I would rather not have to go through the process of flashing the bios of a PC card, it seems like the cheaper option, and I feel like my skill level is on par with what it would take. Thank you for the recommendation!
Click to expand...
I'll share a bit of info that I ran into when I went down this road as well.
  1. Not all PC-compatible Radeon 7000 cards will work. The "Macintosh" models have a 128K (1Mbit, small b), EEPROM, because "Old World"/Beige Macs the PCI cards need both the ROM BIOS and some drivers baked into the ROM to work. PCs didn't have the "driver" need, so the ROMS on PC cards are often only 64K (512 bytes) in size.
  2. While there are "reduced" sized ROM images out there, they have a lot of compatibility issues with "Old World"/Beige Macs. They apparently will not output any video during the power on or "Happy Mac"/boot up process, only displaying video when OS 9 loads and is at the desktop.
  3. You MUST have OS 9.2 minimum to use the ATI official drivers for Radeon 7000 full support. OS 9.1 doesn't have a new enough version of OpenGL. The drivers included in 9.04/9.1 "work" well enough to output video to the screen, but the performance in 3D/anything needing acceleration will be greatly reduced.
  4. OS 9.2 and 9.2.2 won't install normally on anything older than a Beige G3, which means you need to use OS9helper to install them (See here: https://web.archive.org/web/20120204045014/http://www.os9forever.com/os9helper.html)

While I don't want to scare you off, I do want you to be aware that there's going to be a bit more to this than "just getting a Radeon 7000 off eBay and flashing it." I thought that same thing, and learned the hard way/had to order a replacement EEPROM to swap the chip on my card.
 
demik

demik

Tinkerer
Oct 11, 2021
42
36
18
My vote goes for the Radeon 7000. I will echo what @Stinkerton18 said.

I have both (reduced ROM and full ROM). Reduced ROM works better in a New World Mac as primary/secondary card.

You can also flash old Sun Radeon 7000s (SUN 375-3290-01) as they have a 128K ROM as well.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Stinkerton18
Stinkerton18

Stinkerton18

Moderator
Staff member
Aug 18, 2022
60
46
18
  • Like
Reactions: Paralel, retr01 and AvadonDragon
ouroboros

ouroboros

New Tinkerer
Nov 29, 2022
25
8
3
Stinkerton18 said:
Good news!! My Diamond Multimedia Radeon 7000 PCI card has been successfully "Macintoshed". I did replace the ROM chip with this one: https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Alliance-Memory/M25P10-AVMN6TP?qs=TuK3vfAjtkV3EegG7JZU3A==

Then flashed it with the Retail Radeon 7000 Macintosh Edition ROM from here: http://themacelite.wikidot.com/wikidownloads2
Working great now, even on bootup/"Happy Mac" screen on my PowerTower Pro Macintosh Clone even.
Click to expand...
This is great! I see there is a same model on ebay I might try and snatch up since you so kindly provided detailed info on the chip that needs replaced and files!! Thank you so much!

I'm so taken aback by the additional help weeks after I posted this. I truly am thankful to everyone that replied and this forum rocks!
 
ouroboros

ouroboros

New Tinkerer
Nov 29, 2022
25
8
3
I just purchased a Sapphire Radeon 7000 64MB PCI card on ebay for pretty cheap. Going to order the ROM chip on mouser and hope for the best. I'm assuming I can just throw the card in my current PC's PCIe slot and flash it from there?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom