Sorry, didn't mean for it to come off that way. I was trying to emphasize the point that ultimately where to put a post is the issue folks are talking about., not from where do you post it.
Too many categories
- Thread starter jcs
- Start date
IMO, I think 68k Macs should be subcategorized by:
- Compact Macs
- LC, Performa, Quadra & Centris (All the ones with the 68LC040, 68040 & 68030 and the LC had the 68020)
- Mac II Series
- 68k Laptops
I think categories is one thing 68kmla does really well. They only have one sub-forum and it's for Unix & Linux under Software.
I also think maybe the way users look for things and post things should be considered more. For instance, if you are having a problem with your G3/266 screen display, do you search all threads in the Macintosh section for "G3 Display"? Personally, that's were I would start (but that's just me). Or would you go to Macintosh>PowerPC G3, G4 & G5 (New World ROM)>PowerMac G3 & iMac G3 and search there? But what if it's a more general PowerMac video issue? You may not find it in the PowerMac G3 section. Maybe it's in the G4 or G5 section.
So are we sub-categorizing everything to help with searching or to help with where to post? Since the search feature is pretty robust, I don't think finding things is as much of a problem as where to post them. And of course the posts is why we're all here.
I definitely caught your emphasis. I think my response was that I find the subcategory by browsing them before I create a post, which helps with the issue. In my experience, of struggling through a long list of categories and sub-categories in the process of creating a post would be a challenge. TBH, I didn't even realize there was a "Create Post" button at the root of the site. An alternative solution would be to remove that button and only allow posts from within the location the post will be created.
I've always viewed the categories as a way to help people see posts they may be interested in. If you're searching, you're looking for a specific topic. When I browse a category, it's because I'm interested in something as a whole. and so the curated, narrow list of posts helps filter out just the posts I might find interest in. Searching doesn't solve that, and fewer, more broad categories, means I have to parse through a lot more content that isn't relevant to what I'm looking for.
It's a challenging problem, but I believe there's got to be a solution that satisfies both needs. Would better community use of tags, with fewer categories be an option? I always try to tag my posts, but not sure we can rely on that as a site.
I agree and like categories for that reason.
However, when i go to the front page i often get exhausted looking at it and lose any and all energy to interact with the forum. I have a few ideas for knocking around for a few months now. and i just never got the energy to post about them because the front page is just sooo long. Not that i can't figure out or find which place to post it. I simply don't have the energy to start a new thread. Its simply overwhelming.
The solution might be less catagories. but another solution is just organize it better. Make the first front page not have soo much contant and require soo much scrolling.
I'm not diagnosed neurodiverse in anyway. but i can definitely relate to people who are after using this forum for awhile.
However, when i go to the front page i often get exhausted looking at it and lose any and all energy to interact with the forum. I have a few ideas for knocking around for a few months now. and i just never got the energy to post about them because the front page is just sooo long. Not that i can't figure out or find which place to post it. I simply don't have the energy to start a new thread. Its simply overwhelming.
The solution might be less catagories. but another solution is just organize it better. Make the first front page not have soo much contant and require soo much scrolling.
I'm not diagnosed neurodiverse in anyway. but i can definitely relate to people who are after using this forum for awhile.
I started this thread in October and I've tried using the site over these past months, but it's really hard to engage with it. To echo what Patrick said, every time I get to the list of categories, I'm just overwhelmed and I navigate off of the site. Perhaps if there was a ton of traffic I'd be complaining that there are too many threads in a small number of categories, but as it is right now, it's hard to stick around and read anything because I don't know where to look and I'm not going to click into every category looking for interesting threads.
Maybe there's been enough time since the launch of the site that the admins could take another look at the level of traffic in every category and merge a bunch together that don't need to be broken out.
Maybe there's been enough time since the launch of the site that the admins could take another look at the level of traffic in every category and merge a bunch together that don't need to be broken out.
Hi, @jcs
As I mentioned previously, I am not on the board who makes decides like this, but I did go back and read all posts in this thread just now. I noted 5 people, yourself included, have chimed in to voice support for reducing the number of categories. A few others chimed in to say they either like it the way it is now or are simply not bothered by it. Others seem to flock to Recent Posts only, ignoring the categories.
My guess is that the TD board hasn't acted on making any changes because there hasn't been a large number of forum members pressing for a change in the current category status quo. No doubt board members are pondering things like: "If we reduce the number of categories, will that annoy the people who like it the way it is now?"
So the question then becomes, would a change upset more people than leaving things the way they are now?
Please feel free to let your voice be heard. Things only improve when people provide input and then the powers that be act on that input. I think the board is going to entertain any rational conversation on this topic and perhaps make a decision based on numbers (i.e., what brings the greatest joy to the largest number of forum members) more than anything else. If I'm wrong on that, I'm sure @Kai Robinson or another board member can set me straight.
FWIW I completely ignore categories now unless posting a new thread. I’ve been browsing with the What’s New link. Since there’s not a lot of activity I can just check the first few pages there and have a good sense of what’s happening. I agree there are just way too many categories though.
That is perhaps the greater problem to be solved. But I am unsure if one can say that lack of activity is due to a large number of categories though.
Thoughts?
I pretty much only browse the site using “What’s new - Latest activity“. the downside with that approach is the many ”like” posts that for the most part aren’t interesting when my goal is discovering what topics are actively being discussed.
I'm not bothered by the number of categories, as I can just minimize the one's I'm not interested in, though it would be nice to be able to re-order them, or hide them altogether.
I too mostly check New Posts for current activity.
I too mostly check New Posts for current activity.
I mostly just look at New posts This is actually really terrible and i think its a sign that the forum is setup bad.
That is, because everybody just looks at New posts. because the number of topics is too large. .. why fight so hard to keep something that nobody is using anyways.
besides, I often find my self finding really old threads that I never saw before but i'm interested in. They are just soo hard to find it can be weeks before i notice they exist.
@lilliputian because you mostly just check new posts for current activity. if categories are less, (like the ones that don't have any posts) ... you prolly wouldn't even notice?
That is, because everybody just looks at New posts. because the number of topics is too large. .. why fight so hard to keep something that nobody is using anyways.
besides, I often find my self finding really old threads that I never saw before but i'm interested in. They are just soo hard to find it can be weeks before i notice they exist.
@lilliputian because you mostly just check new posts for current activity. if categories are less, (like the ones that don't have any posts) ... you prolly wouldn't even notice?
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This is not criticism, and I am not writing with the assumption that clever people didn't think about this first. I'm brainstorming and adding my two cents.
I have some experience running similar message-boards and I know it's difficult to reorganize/reshuffle posts later. Not just difficult but insanely time consuming. I am naturally inclined toward hierarchical organization of data and information silos. I'm not sure I would have done different if this were my board and I started it on my own.
However - activity begets activity in my experience. A sub forum with one or no new posts/replies in a few days gives the impression of a dead end forum, not a growing community. The more sub-forums with no activity the worse it looks. I also believe it divides community members in an unnecessary ways.
Are there individuals who can't help, bear to see, or will not use the site if a thread about an Apple IIc is above a thread about a Commodore 64? They don't seem to mind if they see the forum this way via "New Posts" or "Current Activity". How much of what we do in our various silos overlap, and how many of us live in different silos anyway? How many might realize "Oh I don't know about C64 but I do know about repairing traces - I might be able to help."
To summarize: I think one or two sub forums that generated "unread messages" indicators every few hours could do more to strengthen and grow the community than scrolling through lists of empty sub-forums.
And yes, I know what I'm describing represents a lot of work.
I really value the forum experience for this sort of thing. Discord is painful to search, painful to format - it's more for chatting than becoming a solid resource for assistance with problems or teaching people about how to accomplish things or how things work. Discord has its place but I think the forum has endured because of its permanence and I love that a forum exists.
I have some experience running similar message-boards and I know it's difficult to reorganize/reshuffle posts later. Not just difficult but insanely time consuming. I am naturally inclined toward hierarchical organization of data and information silos. I'm not sure I would have done different if this were my board and I started it on my own.
However - activity begets activity in my experience. A sub forum with one or no new posts/replies in a few days gives the impression of a dead end forum, not a growing community. The more sub-forums with no activity the worse it looks. I also believe it divides community members in an unnecessary ways.
Are there individuals who can't help, bear to see, or will not use the site if a thread about an Apple IIc is above a thread about a Commodore 64? They don't seem to mind if they see the forum this way via "New Posts" or "Current Activity". How much of what we do in our various silos overlap, and how many of us live in different silos anyway? How many might realize "Oh I don't know about C64 but I do know about repairing traces - I might be able to help."
To summarize: I think one or two sub forums that generated "unread messages" indicators every few hours could do more to strengthen and grow the community than scrolling through lists of empty sub-forums.
And yes, I know what I'm describing represents a lot of work.
I really value the forum experience for this sort of thing. Discord is painful to search, painful to format - it's more for chatting than becoming a solid resource for assistance with problems or teaching people about how to accomplish things or how things work. Discord has its place but I think the forum has endured because of its permanence and I love that a forum exists.
...a couple more pennies on the floor...
I suspect that the detailed categorization will help down the road as a long term information repository rather than just the "what's happening today" chatter. I thought that part of the idea behind TinkerDifferent was to grow a repository of knowledge that can be mined in the future.
I suspect that the detailed categorization will help down the road as a long term information repository rather than just the "what's happening today" chatter. I thought that part of the idea behind TinkerDifferent was to grow a repository of knowledge that can be mined in the future.
only if there is that repository of knowledge.....
If people come to the forum to post. and then get driven away and not post.... (which is what currently is happening. )
It's the Google question, right? You come here to figure out how to fix your Macintosh Plus. Yeah, your first instinct might be to go find the Macintosh forum and (if you're knowledgeable enough to know the different distinctions) you. might look there first. But really, what are the odds you'll see a thread with a title that matches your problem?
What you will almost always end up doing is hitting "Search". In that case I suppose selecting sub-forums might be a way to narrow your search, but I tend not to do that because I don't want to risk missing any possible hits.
I'm not trying to pile on about the categorization but... if you're hitting search anyway... what is the case for that organization? My only thought is this: A person who is knowledgeable about Ataris might be more likely to browse the Atari forum to lend a hand rather than a Macintosh forum. I guess the question is whether or not that is primary to content itself.
EDIT: I failed to recognize in my last paragraph another issue, which is a conundrum: System related tutorials/ build instructions/etc.
What you will almost always end up doing is hitting "Search". In that case I suppose selecting sub-forums might be a way to narrow your search, but I tend not to do that because I don't want to risk missing any possible hits.
I'm not trying to pile on about the categorization but... if you're hitting search anyway... what is the case for that organization? My only thought is this: A person who is knowledgeable about Ataris might be more likely to browse the Atari forum to lend a hand rather than a Macintosh forum. I guess the question is whether or not that is primary to content itself.
EDIT: I failed to recognize in my last paragraph another issue, which is a conundrum: System related tutorials/ build instructions/etc.
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Ahh, the age old chicken or the egg paradox. Hierarchical philosophical entertainment at its finest.
Like others here, I utilize "whats new>uncheck show only unread" for new discussion.
For historical data, I navigate to the appropriate forum or run a search.
Like others here, I utilize "whats new>uncheck show only unread" for new discussion.
For historical data, I navigate to the appropriate forum or run a search.
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Friends, I think this is a wonderful discussion. Thank you so much for continuing to share excellent observations and suggestions!
I am especially intrigued by what @beeblebrox wrong about "growing the community," and I also appreciate what @Patrick wrote about this forum possibly "driving people away." Growing this forum, in my mind anyway, has nothing to do with pride but everything to do with content. If bringing more people here can provide continuously exciting and helpful discussions, then the purpose of this forum has been fulfilled.
"Driving people away" could be one way to analyze the present situation, but viewing it more optimistically, I could also say that perhaps there is simply more honey in another forum's pot that is more attractive to forum-lovers because that other forum (similar to ours) has more active posts. I've always cared more about the Quality of posts than Quantity. So if our TD forum can provide useful posts like "here's the problem, and here's the step-by-step solution," rather than posts like "I agree!" or "Yes, I'll give that a try tonight," then we aren't doing so bad in terms of content. But I do agree that looks matter. If a sub-forum has few or no posts, human nature takes over and hardly anyone is bold enough to be the one who kick-starts a conversation.
Again, I have no authority to unilaterally change the present TD category layout because I am not on the board of decision makers, but board members are surely reviewing our discussion in this thread. I trust the board to make the right decisions, but I also feel compelled to "stimulate conversation" when needed to supply them with more feedback from forum members, such that they can consider making important improvements.
So the question now becomes, should the board take a leap of faith and severely truncate the number of sub-forums to see what will happen? That of course runs the risk of oversimplifying our forum and still ending up with the same scant number of posts. People still might go to New Posts regardless.
Please remember that this forum was created by your fellow geeks in the vintage computing (mainly vintage Mac) community. We wanted a place safe from bullying, and a place where one can more freely speak their mind without fear, and I believe we have achieved that. We also have a forum that doesn't limit itself to certain types of Macs alone. If a C-64 lover wants to post here, they can! Acorn? Sure! But openness alone is not attracting the masses and keeping them here. It's rather amusing and a bit disappointing to me personally that some would be willing to run the risk of bullying or have their speech more limited in another forum simply because it is perceived there is more content in that other forum. But I guess people are willing to take risks for what they deem to be better or more abundant content.
In terms of geeks having created this forum, the level of geekiness exhibits itself in the sheer abundance of forum categories. I really do think there's a correlation!
Maybe we are too geeky?
Question...
Do you think having interesting merchandise for sale (with proceeds to benefit the forum), or having fun activities, would be a way to attract more people to the forum and keep them posting here, regardless of how our forum categories are structured? Or do you think any such promotions would have little impact while our categories remain the way they are now?
I am especially intrigued by what @beeblebrox wrong about "growing the community," and I also appreciate what @Patrick wrote about this forum possibly "driving people away." Growing this forum, in my mind anyway, has nothing to do with pride but everything to do with content. If bringing more people here can provide continuously exciting and helpful discussions, then the purpose of this forum has been fulfilled.
"Driving people away" could be one way to analyze the present situation, but viewing it more optimistically, I could also say that perhaps there is simply more honey in another forum's pot that is more attractive to forum-lovers because that other forum (similar to ours) has more active posts. I've always cared more about the Quality of posts than Quantity. So if our TD forum can provide useful posts like "here's the problem, and here's the step-by-step solution," rather than posts like "I agree!" or "Yes, I'll give that a try tonight," then we aren't doing so bad in terms of content. But I do agree that looks matter. If a sub-forum has few or no posts, human nature takes over and hardly anyone is bold enough to be the one who kick-starts a conversation.
Again, I have no authority to unilaterally change the present TD category layout because I am not on the board of decision makers, but board members are surely reviewing our discussion in this thread. I trust the board to make the right decisions, but I also feel compelled to "stimulate conversation" when needed to supply them with more feedback from forum members, such that they can consider making important improvements.
So the question now becomes, should the board take a leap of faith and severely truncate the number of sub-forums to see what will happen? That of course runs the risk of oversimplifying our forum and still ending up with the same scant number of posts. People still might go to New Posts regardless.
Please remember that this forum was created by your fellow geeks in the vintage computing (mainly vintage Mac) community. We wanted a place safe from bullying, and a place where one can more freely speak their mind without fear, and I believe we have achieved that. We also have a forum that doesn't limit itself to certain types of Macs alone. If a C-64 lover wants to post here, they can! Acorn? Sure! But openness alone is not attracting the masses and keeping them here. It's rather amusing and a bit disappointing to me personally that some would be willing to run the risk of bullying or have their speech more limited in another forum simply because it is perceived there is more content in that other forum. But I guess people are willing to take risks for what they deem to be better or more abundant content.
In terms of geeks having created this forum, the level of geekiness exhibits itself in the sheer abundance of forum categories. I really do think there's a correlation!
Maybe we are too geeky?Question...
Do you think having interesting merchandise for sale (with proceeds to benefit the forum), or having fun activities, would be a way to attract more people to the forum and keep them posting here, regardless of how our forum categories are structured? Or do you think any such promotions would have little impact while our categories remain the way they are now?
You said earlier that you aren't bothered by the number of categories, so does the mean you wouldn't be bothered if the number of categories was reduced?
Hmm, I'm not sure. On the one hand, I'm organizational by nature, and like having the specific categories. But on the other hand, it may be possible to reduce the number of categories by combining and reorganizing the ones that are here, rather than simply removing them.
They're useful I'm sure from an administrative perspective, but also, even if someone currently prefers browsing New Posts, if that someone does want to perform a search, they can filter that search by a specific forum (or a subset thereof) in order to limit the results. For instance, it might be useful to limit themself to just Mac-related subforums, but it also might be just as useful for instance to limit oneself to, say, all of the "Peripherals & Add-ons" boards within each broader category.
Additionally, and I'm not sure if this functionality is present or not (correct me if it already is), but categories could also be used to filter the list in New Posts as well.