Troubles reinstalling OS 8.5 on SSD in G3 B&W

[mac27]

Howdy folks,

The original HDD in my G3 B&W has become somewhat unreliable so I decided it was time for an SSD upgrade. After considering various options I got this 64GB Transcend SSD, to put into this SSD to IDE adapter, and install using this 2.5" to 3.5" adapter.

When booted from the original install/restore CD that shipped with the G3, the drive is recognized normally and can be initialized. However, the installation always fails after a while, usually with an error about problems accessing a file on the drive (example below). Sometimes it's a "System Resources" file, sometimes it's an "iMac ATI Driver" file (???), sometimes it's other things. I'm a bit mystified as to why it is trying to access files on a drive that's obviously just been initialized and wiped, but anyways...

Things I've tried so far include (1) restarting/resetting/etc.; (2) ensuring the date and time are set correctly (unlike in this photo); (3) trying both Mac OS Standard and Extended formats; (4) partitioning the drive (even though 64 GB isn't that large); (5) trying the "Power Macintosh G3 Install", "Mac OS Install", and "Restore" options off the CD. None of them have worked; sometimes they throw an error about "there is a problem with this drive and data may have been lost". I've also tried using the disk inspector/verification tool but it always just freezes and crashes.

Any advice or suggestions about what may be causing this problem would be much appreciated.

 

[Certificate of Excellence]

If the original drive is still functioning, why not boot with the old hdd, connect the SSD as a second drive and clone/copy the spinners contents to the SSD? Then replace the spinner with the SSD & boot. Why that install is failing could be a myriad of issues from adapter incompatibility to damaged media to the optical drive etc.

In my revb B&W, I use a flashed generic PCI Sata card to connect to a 120gb Netac ssd boot drive.

Best of luck to you.

 

[mac27]

Yeah, was afraid it'd be difficult to troubleshoot. I don't currently have an extra IDE splitter cable to use but that is a good idea. The original HDD is currently not working (some days it does, some days it doesn't) so I'll see about picking up a splitter cable and trying that, assuming the spinner comes back to life sometime...

 

[phunguss]

There are two ATA busses in the B&W G3. If you don't have a ZIP drive under the optical drive, try putting your SSD in there (assuming your adapter has a master/slave jumper). You may have to try a few different options with the 4 pin jumpers (Toshiba for reference, may not apply to your adapter).

 

[mac27]

Got that swapped in, thanks for the tip. After figuring out the jumper settings I was able to copy the contents of the HDD onto the SSD, then swapped the SSD back in to the main bay and removed jumper. Now, it boots but I get to the "Welcome to Mac OS" splash and then the system freezes. None of the extension icons appear across the bottom before it freezes.

Is that something to do with the fact that everything was copied onto the SSD manually (system folder etc.)?

 

[phunguss]

After you power up, hold down the left shift key and do not release it until the desktop is loaded. That should be safe mode with no extensions. If it boots fine that way, then there has to be something corrupt in there or some offending extension. The original HD was a fully functional install?

 

[mac27]

When powering up and holding down the left shift key, it only makes it to the Happy Mac icon and then the system freezes. Tried it 3 or 4 times. (Actually one time it made it to "Welcome to Mac OS - Extensions Disabled" and then froze).

Put the HDD back in and it spun up just fine. Was back on the desktop in about 60 seconds. *sigh*

 

[phunguss]

Try the SSD back under the optical and see if it boots there? I have seen some really weird behavior with sata/ide adapters. Some of it may be bus speed related. I think the bus is 33MHz and maybe your adapter can't run that slow? You may have to look at flashing one of those SATA Raid cards with the Sil3112 controller. I know my Strawberry iMac had a really hard time with the SSD adapters, I tried several different brands.

 

[Slimes]

That 2nd adapter is bad. It doesn't work In either direction. (I tested some.)

 

[mac27]

Tried putting the SSD back in the ZIP drive bay, and it does not even attempt to boot there (just flashing "?"). I tried all the jumper options to no avail.

I tried it several more times in the main bay, but it just froze at the Happy Mac each time. So, looks like this is just not going to work, which is a bummer.

That 2nd adapter is bad. It doesn't work In either direction. (I tested some.)

Referring to the 2.5" to 3.5" adapter? That seems so strange since it's a fairly passive little device and all. Have you any recommendations for one that actually does work?

 

[phunguss]

I will pull all of mine out and check the versions probably next January for the PPC Challenge. I do have one connected to my AppleTV Gen 1. Works fine. Seems to be the same JM20330 chip that yours uses. Here is one more attempt to try: Remove the optical drive from the chain... and only connect the SSD to that one. Leave the HD on its original place. Boot up, copy it again, then see if it will boot off the SSD.

JM20330 data sheet shows

ATA/ATAPI Ultra DMA of transfer rate 16.7, 25, 33, 48, 66, 100, 133, and 150MB/s.
ATA/ATAPI LBA48 addressing mode

 

[mac27]

Same result with that (copying files from HDD onto SSD plugged into optical slot).

Yeah, if Slimes is right then it's an issue with the 2.5" to 3.5" adapter, which sucks. Especially if 33MB/s is listed for the ATA to mSATA component.

On the other hand, it seems the mSATA drive and ATA adapter component would work for any of my iBooks or PowerBooks that use it.

 

[phunguss]

It may be that the B&W is a special kind of problem child. I just popped mine open and I have the original HD and a SCSI drive in it... the SSD I was toying with is not there, so I must have not got it working in the B&W either. Looking forward to the challenge in January!

I know I used some type of SATA to IDE in my Cube, Strawberry iMac, and 2 flat panel G4's.

Is the 2.5 to 3.5 keyed? If I recall, I have one of those and there was no pin missing, so maybe flip it 180?

 

[phunguss]

Maybe too much info:

https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/questions/26812/ide-ssd-pulling-down-data-bus

https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?t=96383 Partition size limit, but you said your SSD is 64GB. Try partitioning it into two 32GB or a 4GB and 60GB and see if the 4GB boots after copying.

 

[mac27]

Interesting, thanks for those links. I'm going to read through and dig a bit deeper tomorrow when I'm hopefully more rested up. Yes, at the beginning I tried partitioning to two 32GB partitions and that had no effect. I'll give the 4GB a try as well and see if that changes anything...

I also have a SATA to IDE in my Cube! No issues there ... I've used IDE to CF in several machines, including my TAM, and those always seem to work great (native, I guess). I guess that would be the best option for this 'problem child' if all else fails.

The 2.5" to 3.5" is indeed keyed on both ends so that eliminates a variable.

If you have any luck getting an mSATA device installed in your B&W in January, would be keen to hear how it goes!

 

[phunguss]

I just grabbed another B&W so I will try some SSD options this weekend.

 

[mac27]

OK, so after several more days of struggling (and slicing my hand open on the sharp case internals, lol) I've not had any further luck. Trying to boot off of both a 32GB and a 4GB partition yielded the same results (freezing at "Welcome to Mac OS" splash).

So, I am going to chalk this up to some kind of bizarre and undocumented incompatibility between the G3 and the SSD device and/or adapter(s). I've thrown the original HDD back in it, and it seems to be working fine at the moment. I'll try installing this SSD in one of my many portables sometime soon and will hopefully have better luck! Many thanks @phunguss for your input and assistance with this

 

[mac27]

Update/edit: I decided to throw the SSD and housing/adapter into my Key Lime iBook, and lo and behold the thing immediately worked perfectly. Installed OS 9 from CD and it boots right up.

So, looks like the problem was either the 2.5"-3.5" adapter (which would be strange because it's just passive??) or just that the B&W G3 is a problem child. But very relieved this drive isn't going to waste!

 

[phunguss]

Just found this thread claiming all JMicron 20330 are trash. Having no luck with mine on the B&W G3. Yes, I can boot from a mechanical drive, format and copy to SSD, but it won't boot. I will have to see what other adapters I have that are not JMicron 20330 based.

This thread claims you cannot boot from a slave drive.

 

[mac27]

Interesting ... and somewhat validating that you are having the same issue, lol. Wouldn't be surprised if this is the case, but just thankful the 20330 does at least seem to work in *some* machines.

And yeah, that other thread may be correct also but I guess I'll never know since this adapter doesn't work in that machine either way

Keen to hear if you have any success with other adapters! Cheers.