BlueSCSI v2 on PB170

[Yoda]

This isn't a problem, but a more philosophical question I guess.

I have a BlueSCSI v2 for powerbooks (thanks @Androda), and I plan to use it for my 170 - a favorite of mine, which I use frequently. Problem is, the 170 works perfectly as it is, and I've never used a BlueSCSI v2 before, and not had a whole lot of luck with BlueSCSI devices (a couple of earlier versions) so I wonder if I ought to try it out on a less important PB first, such as a 165 I have which I typically don't use.

Is there anything I should know about setting the device up which might lend a bit more confidence to pulling the 170 apart and just getting on with it, or is a bit of experimentation in another system first a better idea?

Stupid question really.

 

[Paralel]

This isn't a problem, but a more philosophical question I guess.

I have a BlueSCSI v2 for powerbooks (thanks @Androda), and I plan to use it for my 170 - a favorite of mine, which I use frequently. Problem is, the 170 works perfectly as it is, and I've never used a BlueSCSI v2 before, and not had a whole lot of luck with BlueSCSI devices (a couple of earlier versions) so I wonder if I ought to try it out on a less important PB first, such as a 165 I have which I typically don't use.

Is there anything I should know about setting the device up which might lend a bit more confidence to pulling the 170 apart and just getting on with it, or is a bit of experimentation in another system first a better idea?

Stupid question really.

As far as I am aware, from what has been posted around the last few days, the BlueSCSI is no risk to your hardware, if anything happens to it, the BlueSCSI itself will die. A poster here, or MLA, made it clear that the only risk is to the BlueSCSI itself, and not the hardware it is attached to.

 

[Yoda]

Ah, that does help. I know there's controversy of sorts - at least in the minds of some people - about BlueSCSI products, but it seems pretty hazy what the issues are - at least in a practical sense for the user.

I created an HDA image on a microSD card and installed 7.1 on it successfully on my desktop Mac, so I presume that'll work in the BlueSCSI - even if for some reason I need to reinstall 7.1 from floppies once it's in there.

 

[Androda]

As far as I am aware, from what has been posted around the last few days, the BlueSCSI is no risk to your hardware, if anything happens to it, the BlueSCSI itself will die. A poster here, or MLA, made it clear that the only risk is to the BlueSCSI itself, and not the hardware it is attached to.

I am very curious what has been posted about the quality and safety of BlueSCSI. Don't keep up on or track every thread.

But that user is correct, BlueSCSI V2 comes with a protection fuse such that if there's a hardware fault in either your Mac or on the BlueSCSI then it'll cut itself off from power.

Ah, that does help. I know there's controversy of sorts - at least in the minds of some people - about BlueSCSI products, but it seems pretty hazy what the issues are - at least in a practical sense for the user.

I created an HDA image on a microSD card and installed 7.1 on it successfully on my desktop Mac, so I presume that'll work in the BlueSCSI - even if for some reason I need to reinstall 7.1 from floppies once it's in there.

When installing that 7.1 OS, did you select "install for all Macs" ? If not it might only have installed the necessary enabler for your desktop it was installed on.

 

[Yoda]

I am very curious what has been posted about the quality and safety of BlueSCSI. Don't keep up on or track every thread.

But that user is correct, BlueSCSI V2 comes with a protection fuse such that if there's a hardware fault in either your Mac or on the BlueSCSI then it'll cut itself off from power.

Thank you for responding!

The complaint, as far as I am able to tell, is:
1- BlueSCI is not capable of sustaining the current on the Mac's SCSI bus, and will eventually (or sooner) burn out.
2- That SCSI termination is not correctly implemented. I have no idea what this actually means because it hasn't been explained.

I know SCSI needs termination, and that typically when SCSI devices don't work as expected it is likely the bus isn't terminated correctly, but I never really had issues with that in the old days. Today, with things like the BlueSCSI and other HD replacements, I am less clear how termination is 'done wrong' in this sort of context.

The problem is often that a sensible question is asked (as I did), and a flame war erupts (as it did immediately after). It's not been helpful!

I will say that I have three BlueSCSI devices - bought from you. The latest is the v2, which I haven't used yet. The other two are earlier devices; an internal which I attempted to use in a Classic, and worked flawlessly until everything was reassembled, and then booting resulted in bus errors. A 40Mb SCSI HD works fine. I will, one day, put the BlueSCSI in something else, because I'm reasonably sure it isn't at fault.

The other is a DB25 external, which works perfectly with my 630, but not with any PowerBook I've tried, even when externally powered. But then I have a SCSI2SD external, which has the same issue but the other way around - it works with PowerBooks, but not the 630. That does sound like a termination thing, but has not been obstructive so I haven't investigated further.

When installing that 7.1 OS, did you select "install for all Macs" ? If not it might only have installed the necessary enabler for your desktop it was installed on.

This is a good question, and I can't remember, but I think what I did was scroll down the list of 'install for...' options and pick the system install for a PB170.

When doing this, I was using the BlueSCSI external on the 630. I had created a 2Gb blank in Disk Jockey, named it HD10_512 2000MB.hda and saved it on an exFAT-formatted microSD. I then put that card into the BlueSCSI, plugged it into the 630, booted the 630, and got a dialog that it had found a 1.97Gb partition and did I want to format it.

I clicked yes, and it formatted and appeared on the desktop. I then the MacOS_7.1.iso I had grabbed from the Garden on the 630, selected the newly formatted drive - and THINK I picked PB 170, though I might have selected the generic 'all Mac' option.

No great bother if I got it wrong, I can always do it again, and get it right - or indeed, I have a set of 7.1 install floppies, and the 170's floppy drive is good, so could use that.

 

[eric]

Ah, that does help. I know there's controversy of sorts - at least in the minds of some people - about BlueSCSI products, but it seems pretty hazy what the issues are - at least in a practical sense for the user.

The complaint, as far as I am able to tell, is:
1- BlueSCI is not capable of sustaining the current on the Mac's SCSI bus, and will eventually (or sooner) burn out.
2- That SCSI termination is not correctly implemented. I have no idea what this actually means because it hasn't been explained.

From a practical sense, there is no issue to the user. And yes I cant visit that site anymore as I just get yelled at.

1) sure, maybe. been doing support for users for 3 years now and this has never been the case. BluePills are pretty robust little devices.
2) the issue is if you disable termination the resistors are still in line, which could cause issues if you have 3 bluescsi's v1's on the bus at the same time (unlikely IMO) . If this was a concern you could also socket the resistor packs. The original v1's termination is the same as piscsi as @landogriffin was kind and helped me learn about it way back then!

V2 addresses these "complaints" and adds a lot more. I'm still using a v1 in my Plus/SE, and have a v2 in my faster macs.

Welcome btw and glad to have you here.

 

[Yoda]

From a practical sense, there is no issue to the user. And yes I cant visit that site anymore as I just get yelled at.

1) sure, maybe. been doing support for users for 3 years now and this has never been the case. BluePills are pretty robust little devices.
2) the issue is if you disable termination the resistors are still in line, which could cause issues if you have 3 bluescsi's v1's on the bus at the same time (unlikely IMO) . If this was a concern you could also socket the resistor packs. The original v1's termination is the same as piscsi as @landogriffin was kind and helped me learn about it way back then!

V2 addresses these "complaints" and adds a lot more. I'm still using a v1 in my Plus/SE, and have a v2 in my faster macs.

Welcome btw and glad to have you here.

Very much appreciated, thanks!

That place seems a bit prone to tantrums, and I can't say I really miss that! It must be said that the degree to which this kind of techno-babble erupts there is rather amusing in a way, because at the end of the day what helps users are explanations about what the problems are, how they happen, and what can be done to avoid or mitigate them, and that's not what you get there. The babble is worthless at best, and obscures practical information at worst.

Personally, I have no complaints. Admittedly, I don't have great success with the 2 devices I have in use at present, but that's the magic of SCSI. I'll deal with that later, though really I want my old systems to work not to play with, so I tend to reach solutions that do work, and don't much care if they're not perfect. I also think that anyone who spends time developing solutions for old systems and the people who own them earn thanks rather than brickbats.

So I thank you and @Androda for developing and supplying these, because if there's one thing a vintage system is going to need at some point, it's a replacement storage device! I know that once I've got the v2 in the 170 set up, I'll need several more!

 

[Paralel]

I am very curious what has been posted about the quality and safety of BlueSCSI. Don't keep up on or track every thread.

But that user is correct, BlueSCSI V2 comes with a protection fuse such that if there's a hardware fault in either your Mac or on the BlueSCSI then it'll cut itself off from power.

One of the only things I have heard is what I mentioned above, that if anything goes wrong, your hardware is safe; you just might lose your BlueSCSI, but that is the limit of what can go wrong. It came up because someone was using one of the SCSI-SD devices (I don't remember which one) and they somehow managed to zap the SCSI chip in their machine because they did something you aren't ever supposed to do with an external SCSI device. Someone mentioned that they were in a similar scenario and while it assassinated their BlueSCSI, their machine was intact. So, it was mentioned in the context of the BlueSCSI having a "Machine First, Itself Second" build philosophy, which everyone agreed was how they should be designed. An external SCSI device can be repaired or replaced, whereas damage to a machine could end in a situation that is substantially worse.

The only other thing I have heard is that v1 might have a higher rate of failure than expected since the "brain" (I can't remember if they are driven by a microprocessor or a microcontroller, and I don't wish to misspeak) was tolerant to the voltage it was being run at, but only for short periods of time, not continuously. Apparently this can result in a higher than expected failure rate regarding said "Brain".

I remember that many people were highly anticipating BlueSCSI v2. Several people have mentioned it in the context of looking forward to ordering them soon.

That's all that comes to mind.

 

[Yoda]

For me, the frustration isn't that the BlueSCSI might fail, since that's true of anything. Not even that there may be design compromises, because that's true of many of thew Macs they go in anyway, it's that the criticisms don't really tell us anything helpful, or even have much detail.

Things like 'termination not done right' may well be true, but it would help if there was an explanation of what this means in practical terms, and how to deal with it.

Certainly for me, the fact a device will fail while not damaging its host system is a plus not a minus, though I tend to think the owner of these systems is more likely to inflict damage than a SCSI device being properly used. The sheer number of times I've read tales of people recapping a working machine and getting a non working one at the end tends to demonstrate that.

There doesn't seem to be much credibility to the arguments I experienced 'over there', but the fact there's so much hostility - and very poor moderation - leaves users with rather poor support, and lots of questions that don't get answered.

 

[Headsign]

Hello group. I'm brand new here, and I hope no one minds if I continue this thread, since it's not that old, and the problems described are still the ones I'm facing.

I just purchased a BlueSCSI V2 — the one with a 25 pin connector, and tried to fit it into a Powerbook 170. It works, but not effectively. A lot of times, the desktop freezes on startup. I use the MacPak disc image that was suggested in the BlueSCSI docs. Sometimes it boots normally, other times, it freezes. Also, it is impossible to use any other SCSI device, like a Iomega 100 drive, while the BlueSCSI is pugged into the internal HD port.

I read a lot about it here, and in different other places, but always to the conclusion that it didn't work any better.

Is there any new development with any of the participants in this thread?

 

[eric]

Since this thread I actually picked up a powerbook 170 and use it as my test machine for DB25's before sending them out - works without issue. (and the battery works so it's mobile!) - I added termpower to the 170's HDI-30 port as well.

I'd suggest you go through the troubleshooting guide if you haven't (and even if you have please revisit it and make sure you didn't overlook any steps). Try to rule out if the MacPack is the issue by using one of the clean installs on the Images page.

 

[Headsign]

Thanks for replying so fast. I'm not extremely tech-savvy, so in short, what I understood is that the HDI-30 has term power, but the internal DB25 doesn't, and that the ultimate solution, aside from checking the installation and going through all points of the troubleshooting guide, is to bridge a cable from the HDI-30's term power to where the HD25's power ought to be?

 

[eric]

To clarify the internal scsi connector does have termpower (no extra power needed there)- the external DB25/HD-30 does not (unless you do that mod, which is not required)

I was only saying "if you want to do a mod to be mobile with a DB25, you _could_ do that" - not required at all.

So if you have a DB25 and don't that mod, you will be required to have a 1A USB power brick attached to the BlueSCSI.

 

[Headsign]

Ah, okay. Thanks for clarifying. So, for dummies, in the case where I use the power brick, I'd have an extra cable hanging out of the Powerbook, unless I do the mod.

 

[eric]

Ah, okay. Thanks for clarifying. So, for dummies, in the case where I use the power brick, I'd have an extra cable hanging out of the Powerbook, unless I do the mod.

Right, the DB25 (the one you mentioned you had) will require power externally by default on PowerBooks.

 

[Headsign]

Okay, thank you for now. I will try to make sense of this and translate it into practice use.

 

[Yoda]

Reviving my own thread, but I recently swapped out the original HD in my 145B with the (early production?) v2 BlueSCSI which I had bought early last year for the 170, but never used.

I used a Disk Jockey created 500Mb blank image, and installed Mac OS 7.1 from a set of floppy disks, opting for the 'All Macintosh' default. Installation went smoothly, and I'm impressed by how fast the 145B boots (about 20-25 seconds). It doesn't really run faster of course, but it does function more smoothly.

One problem however: if the PB goes to sleep, it wakes as it should, but the system remains hung up and non-responsive. If I sleep it manually, when it wakes, it takes about 5 minutes to become responsive and usable.

I know I've seen this behaviour discussed here somewhere, but I can't find it, and I couldn't see any obvious things to look at in the troubleshooting guide.

I bought two current-model v2 BlueSCSIs with wifi for my 170 and 180 - hopefully I'll get to those faster than I used the original unit in the 145B!

 

[Androda]

Here's the wiki article about resolving that issue on early-production Powerbook boards:

Hardware

Open source, open hardware, SCSI emulator using the Pi Pico PR2040 and Pico 2 RP2350 - BlueSCSI/BlueSCSI-v2

github.com

 

[Yoda]

Here's the wiki article about resolving that issue on early-production Powerbook boards:

Hardware

Open source, open hardware, SCSI emulator using the Pi Pico PR2040 and Pico 2 RP2350 - BlueSCSI/BlueSCSI-v2

github.com

Thanks!!!

Sadly I lack the motor skills to safely wield a soldering iron, so the next obvious question is: If the BlueSCSI is left as is, aside from the wake from sleep problem remaining, are there any other damaging or problematic consequences to either the BlueSCSI itself or the PB when it is being used?

 

[eric]

Thanks!!!

Sadly I lack the motor skills to safely wield a soldering iron, so the next obvious question is: If the BlueSCSI is left as is, aside from the wake from sleep problem remaining, are there any other damaging or problematic consequences to either the BlueSCSI itself or the PB when it is being used?

If you're in the US I'll do the fix for you for just the cost of shipping - if not in the US and bought it from an authorized seller please DM me and we can figure something out.