For the love of old tech + rant on all things modern

[AvadonDragon]

I've been giving a lot of thought about what it is that brings me joy about the hobby. I believe that I would probably use one of my old Macs as a daily driver if I could get away with it. I've had to ask myself - am I just getting old? Does modern technology bother me simply because I'm getting to that stage in life? I believe the answer is no. I'm still competitive and able to adapt and learn new things very easily. The new technology trends are in fact legitimately terrible.

I love tools. When I buy a tool I want it to be the perfect tool for the job. I want it to do that job very well and be fairly easy to learn and use. I do NOT want a tool that does 10,000 things poorly and is unnecessarily complicated because it does a bunch of stuff I care nothing about. I would also prefer not to rent my tools if I can help it as I'd actually like to have total ownership of said tool and be able to use it however I please. I'm willing to pay a little extra to get the right tool for the job. One that will preferably do so reliably for a long time.

I could turn this into a rant but I'd rather have a discussion and see how others feel. Why are YOU fond of older technology and what are your feelings about modern technology trends?

 

[Crutch]

This is well expressed. I agree - I am mainly a software guy, and really enjoyed using old programs like (the best one ever) MacPaint, because I could sit down and read the manual (I liked reading the whole manual!) and in a little while feel like I knew everything about the tool and what it could do. Today there are no manuals and it is extremely hard to become an expert in a tool with 1000 features, as you rightly say. In a way I think iPhone apps and similar are an (intentional) step back in this direction as being able to do a few things very well.

 

[ClassicHasClass]

I, also, like being able to fully control every aspect of the system. If I want to get into some nook or cranny, I should be able to do it without the hardware or the operating system getting in my way.

Plus, there's something about the immediacy of older system that modern ones can't replicate. A single POKE on a Commodore 64 can change the entire background colour; a couple more will play music. With "small actions" you can have big effects. There's no direct access like that anymore.

 

[AvadonDragon]

I, also, like being able to fully control every aspect of the system. If I want to get into some nook or cranny, I should be able to do it without the hardware or the operating system getting in my way.

Plus, there's something about the immediacy of older system that modern ones can't replicate. A single POKE on a Commodore 64 can change the entire background colour; a couple more will play music. With "small actions" you can have big effects. There's no direct access like that anymore.

I wish computer science/engineering programs would use those old 8-bit systems as learning tools. They gave you such a good grasp of how the machines actually worked. Too many layers of abstraction between the user and the hardware are great for ease of use/programming purposes but very detrimental to one's fundamental understanding of a machine. I need a good 8-bit system to add to my collection again.

In a way I think iPhone apps and similar are an (intentional) step back in this direction as being able to do a few things very well.

I agree. However, they are starting to experience the same feature creep these days as well. I used to LOVE my smartphone. Over time the trend has been to make it more and more difficult to get a reasonable degree of control over these devices and the apps have gotten to a point where despite my best efforts I still can't eliminate unwanted and unnecessary notifications from them. I'm about ready to trade in my smart phone for an old school Motorola Razr flip phone. It is such a shame they've dismantled the cell networks that supported them.

Historically I was a very big fan of Apple. The old hardware and software was very well documented and easy to tinker with. I don't feel this is the case any longer. I'm hoping the right to repair movement can reverse this trend to some degree.

 

[Yoda]

I feel much the same. The business isn't driven by what we (users) need or want any more, but by factors which are often exactly NOT what users need or want. In practical terms for what I need, for example, the performance of a 30 year old PowerBook running age-appropriate software is not that much slower than a modern system running modern software. Boot times are similar, app and document opening times too. Scrolling and editing a document is very similar, so what you get with modern systems is increasing complexity, demanding increasing performance, demanding increasing layers of OS and software between the hardware and the user.

While that can be a great benefit in work with something like 4K video editing, for the majority of users - and certainly for me - the cost is having to spend far more time and energy servicing the needs of the system than getting an actual job of work done.

This is particularly true of the continuous padding out of OS features in updates that constantly change the way our systems work, sometimes in subtle ways, but often in quite dramatic ones. Even the constant demand of patches, fixes and updates is a tiresome and almost incessant distraction from actual use of the system rather than in pandering to it.

And software... it is hard to imagine many occasions when I need anything more complex than Word 6 or 5.1, or Excel 5 for example, so the monstrously hard to navigate packages pushed out at users these days are a total nonsense.

When I have finished posting this, I will be putting my M1 MBA down for a couple of hours, and going back to my Tandy 102 to complete a piece of work for which its simplicity, excellent keyboard and almost non-existent interface makes it the perfect platform. The fact it's up and running within 2 seconds of picking it up, has no shifting feature set, is free of constant nags and distractions, and runs for a whole day on one set of AA rechargeables is just part of why it's a system of choice for what I do.

And if that is too simple, my PowerBook 170 running 7.1 is just perfect for most else. In the rare cases where I need better performance for something, I have a 5300ce or a PDQ, but I rarely need either.

 

[trag]

I wish computer science/engineering programs would use those old 8-bit systems as learning tools. They gave you such a good grasp of how the machines actually worked. Too many layers of abstraction between the user and the hardware are great for ease of use/programming purposes but very detrimental to one's fundamental understanding of a machine. I need a good 8-bit system to add to my collection again.

When you program in assembly, you control what your getting. If you're using a higher level language, you're just making suggestions.

 

[trag]

Historically I was a very big fan of Apple. The old hardware and software was very well documented and easy to tinker with. I don't feel this is the case any longer. I'm hoping the right to repair movement can reverse this trend to some degree.

Apple used to have a set of User (Human?) Interface Guidlines which they adhered to pretty strictly. The UIGs were based on actual testing and research of what was easiest for folks to learn and use. Or at least the folks they tested it on.

I think around the beginning of OSX the UIG's went out the window and it's been all downhill since.

At this point I'd rather use a Windows machine than a modern Mac.

 

[3lectr1c]

This is just one reason, I have many for why I like this stuff, but:
Not really extremely vintage or anything, but stuff just looked nicer back then, in general.
Nowadays we have thin and boring laptops, smartphones, and flat bland UI.
I want to know whatever happened to UI like Windows Aero, and Aqua! It just looks so good. Well, in my opinion. The transparency, natural theming, and realism. I just have no fun using modern stuff for this reason.
Same goes for product design. Every old laptop used to look super different - you could easily tell Dell’s design language apart from HP’s, or Apple’s, or Lenovo’s. Nowadays, you still can to an extent, but everything sort of looks the same now. Well, except the bronze colored HP Spectre laptops. Those look awesome. If HP made one of those that was upgradable and serviceable, I’d buy one.
This same complaint applies to websites as well.

 

[Crutch]

At this point I'd rather use a Windows machine than a modern Mac.

You’re right about the decline of UIGs, but with this comment I respectfully think you go too far …

Apple’s software produced by Apple, whatever its flaws, still actually comports pretty consistently to a set of standards. The tools broadly match each other, including to an extent across Apple platforms. And the fundamental design of the Mac OS remains excellent: right down to the most universal rule of all — the menu bar is at the top of the screen (where you can always instantly hit it with one sharp swipe of the mouse).

Using Microsoft software is a shocking bad experience considering the number of legit geniuses I’m sure they employ. Examples -

• The weirdly, terribly, annoyingly-inconsistent experience of whatever Microsoft did in Office apps to destroy the normal File menu and instead sprinkle things around gigantic tabs that needlessly take over the whole screen when clicked.
• How hard Microsoft tries to get me to store things on One Drive or whatever they call it, adding an extra step to “browse” to save things where I prefer locally. I think there is a hidden option to eliminate the extra step, but they don’t make it easy.
• Same vein: adding an “auto save” switch to the top right of Office apps that only works on One Drive. There is literally no reason they couldn’t have just allowed that same switch to autosave locally …
• Interrupting my work to ask me if I enjoy using Excel so I can give it a rating. I thought I was using a serious spreadsheet not some weird thing downloaded from the App Store by a developer desperate for likes …
• The first person plural in alert boxes. “We can’t find that right now…”. What? “We”? Are you a hive mind? Go away, hive mind!
• Just inane software UX decisions. Example: Windows forever has had a screen capture utility called Snipping Tool. For about the last four years, every time you try to use it, you are greeted with a message “Snipping Tool is moving in a future release! Try Snip ‘n Sketch!” Is there a “don’t show me this again” checkbox? No, of course not. Whoever at Microsoft thought I needed four years’ permanent, non-hideable notice that eventually some OS utility might be upgraded has hopefully gotten a stern talking to. Let’s just quietly upgrade features when they are actually going to be upgraded, how about that?

I will spare you the remaining 537 items on this list.

 

[Yoda]

I will spare you the remaining 537 items on this list.

I wish you wouldn't, I was enjoying that!

 

[3lectr1c]

How about the fact that the settings app and control panel are STILL two different apps, 11 years on from what the settings app first was released. And the old control panel is still needed to complete certain tasks, like to manage network devices and partition a disk.

 

[ClassicHasClass]

Apple does a lot wrong these days (and knows better). But I'm still typing this on an M1 MBA because Microsoft keeps saying to hold its beer.

 

[Patrick]

I know somebody (via kfest) who uses his Apple IIgs as his only computer. (maybe he has a cell phone idk)
But like at home, the only computer he has is his apple IIgs. and he's used it sense it first came out.

... so its doable.

I've had to ask myself - am I just getting old? Does modern technology bother me simply because I'm getting to that stage in life?

for me, i fear maybe yes.
I can learn the new things and will learn the new things. but if i had my choice. i would not. I would rather spend my days tinkering with retro stuffs.

Example: I really don't want to learn prompt engineering. (like Generative AI that is very popular right now) . But I can see how it can make programers more productive using it. ( i just would rather learn c on a 68k mac....)

this quote seems true. but i don't think it is true for everybody.

“I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.”​

― Douglas Adams, The Salmon of Doubt

This describes my emotional state. Which does not match up with my rational state.

 

[Certificate of Excellence]

Apple does a lot wrong these days (and knows better). But I'm still typing this on an M1 MBA because Microsoft keeps saying to hold its beer.

I am stealing this line.

I am fond of older gear because I can get it mostly or completely free and for my DD needs, it's all I really need.

1. Price - if I can save a buck, I'm going to. Im not going to drop large $$ for M whatever when my 09 mbp does 95% of what I need it to.
2. Old man syndrome - I like 10.5 to 11 macos and dont want to have to re-learn where crap gets moved to. I have better things to do than play find X hide and seek.
3. Flat icons suck.
4. Subscription services blow.

I have no issue with new technology or consumption of that. If you have the cheese and want it, buy it. At some point, I figure I'll buy a new mac although mostly what a new device would do for me, I already do with my iphone14 (secure banking, trading, purchases etc. The biggest issue for me right now is continuing education. I am constantly feeling the push to buy a new windows laptop for a more seamless remote/distance learning class experience.

 

[AvadonDragon]

Microsoft forcing me to totally relearn how to use a computer every few years with their increasingly fractured user interface ‘improvements’ has been a great annoyance to me most of my life. I feel like they really peaked with Windows 7 and finally got everything just about perfect. It was beautiful, sleek, stable, fairly user friendly… WTF happened?? Not only did they destroy their beautiful creation but everyone else decided - Microsoft thinks they need to make their UI flat and hideous I guess we should too in order to stay modern looking. Every now and then I fire up a Windows 7 machine and feel like I’ve traveled forward in time to the year 3000 when people have regained their sanity and decided things can be pretty again. I brute force my Windows 11 UI into a functional approximation of Win7 when I have to use it. I have basically no idea where they have put anything and have to search through the multiple personality madness of GUI controls that span generations of change. I might as well drop to the command line. It would be easier at this point.

On the other hand Apple has gone from the beautiful innovative hippie underdog company of yesteryear to the totalitarian sterile nightmare company of today. It is still by far the best user experience but definitely doesn’t feel the same as it once did. I used to fire up my Mac and it is was a joy to use. It was fun unlike all the other machines. I was doing work but it felt more like I was playing with a toy. Now, not so much. I get a small sense of dread from my modern Apple products. It feels like I don’t own them. They own me. When I look at new Apple products, the 1984 commercial plays in my mind and I think - how did it come to this?

Android? I hate my android devices with a burning passion. They used to be my favorites too. First thing I look for in an Android device? Can I unlock the boot-loader, wipe the device clean, and put my own custom-built OS on it? If not, then heck no I won’t buy it. I’ve wasted so much time fighting with my smart phones over the past few years trying to force them to be what I want that I’ve just about given up and gotten a dumb flip phone again. I wanna use my sexy modded Moto Razr V3xx again!

I am sadly a Linux user now. Not a proud or evangelical one though. Linux users have always kinda gotten on my nerves for their elitist snobbery. I personally like Linux Mint which would mark me as a weakling or a noob in the community. I’ve been using this awful operating system since the 90’s. I’m pretty good at it but I’m just tired of being proud of how masochistic I am. I had to literally compile this crap when I got started. I swear I remember it taking days. I just want something that makes my life slightly easier now. If you are going to criticize my distro go talk to the BSD guys and get some proper schooling in hard core. What is this, DOS? I don’t want to drop to a command line every time I want to do anything important. Fine I’ll do it anyways just don’t turn the OS into a steaming pile of spyware crap and I’ll keep using it.

I swear modern technology is about to make me adopt TempleOS as my daily driver. Maybe Haiku would be a good compromise in terms of insanity.

@Patrick I know and love that Douglas Adams quote. New technology is an abomination and against the natural order of things! Why on Earth did this have to be the field where my natural talents lie?

Don’t get me started on AI. Everyone. Literally EVERYONE with half a brain knows how stupid it is to mess with this stuff and we are doing it anyways. WHY??
“You hear that Mr. Anderson?... That is the sound of inevitability…”

I’m sorry for the raving lunatic TLDR rant post but I’ve been needing to get it off my chest and I thought you guys might sympathize to some degree.

 

[Certificate of Excellence]

I am sadly a Linux user now. Not a proud or evangelical one though.

I use Ubuntu 22.4.3 on my a1278 08 mb & 09 mbp.

Works well over all. Not macos but it has enough polish and intuitive design to be reasonably useful to me & surprisingly snappy on such old hardware.

 

[AvadonDragon]

Linux has come a LONG way. Some distros are rock solid and user friendly now. I am grateful for the brutal education it gave me in the early years. Back then doing the simplest things was unbelievably hard. There have been some trade offs between ease of use and bloated inefficiency but not nearly as bad as other options.

 

[ClassicHasClass]

My regular workstation is a POWER9 16-core (64-thread) Raptor Talos II running Fedora. It works well, but I had to do a lot of personal work to make it work "sanely," and some things still don't work as nicely as they should. (That's Linux, not the hardware.) Also, I've yet to find any laptop I like better or has better overall performance:battery life than Apple silicon.

I would rather do all my work in Mac OS 9, which is fast, consistent and clean, except I can't do all my work in Mac OS 9.

 

[vorg]

For me, it started with the magic of electrons hitting phosphor screens.

Now I find learning to use and maintain an older system is helping my understanding of modern computing, and I'm fascinated by the adaptations and modifications people have made to keep these machines working in the modern era. Steve and Steve could not have imagined something like a person tweeting from a Macintosh, and yet people have figured it out. My personal goal is learn enough to make an HDMI to Mac display driver, so one can be the primary display on a modern system. Like you expressed, there is a purposefulness and directness to old computers. For text editing and reading emails, I'd prefer to stare at a CRT in an awesome little beige case.

 

[AvadonDragon]

My regular workstation is a POWER9 16-core (64-thread) Raptor Talos II running Fedora.

Wow! That is a badass workstation! Very impressed.

For me, it started with the magic of electrons hitting phosphor screens.

Heck yeah! Nothing like having a good ol' particle accelerator firing at your face. I had to purge most of mine due to space limitations though.
Until I get a 3D plasma voxel hologram with haptic feedback I'm feeling thoroughly let down by the lack of high energy physics in my display technology.