Good first Apple II?

[rjkucia]

Hi all, I've never had an Apple II before and I've become somewhat curious about getting one. I think the IIc+ looks like the ideal machine for what I'd want - it's tiny, has everything built in that I'd really need, and the lack of a 5.25" drive doesn't really matter since I don't have any Apple II floppies right now anyways.

A few questions:

• Can a Macintosh interact with a IIc 3.5" floppy at all? Like making images, transferring files, etc. I have an SE/30, and if I can use that to make new disks, that'd be a huge plus.
• Are the serial ports between the II and the Mac compatible? They both *look* like LocalTalk - can you hook them up together and transfer files/network/etc that way?
• The IIc+ looks pretty hard to find. The IIc looks a little easier to find but the ones I see are usually pretty expensive. I'd be looking to spend <$200, ideally closer to $100 for an Apple II. Is that unrealistic for a IIc (plus or otherwise)? Are there other Apple II models that are less desired or more common that I'd have more luck with?

 

[Yoda]

I have a couple of Apple IIc models - an original ROM 255, and a later ROM '0'. Both have 5.25 floppy drives on the right-side edge. I don't think the Mac is compatible with the 3.5 inch external drive that was available for the IIc, but BMoW Floppy EMU can be used with both IIc and compact Macs with a floppy port - though you have to select which platform to use.

I used ADTPro and a serial cable via my 2016 27-inch iMac (via a USB adapter) to get software onto the IIc, and save to floppy - it proved quick and reliable, and even allowed me to create boot disks for the system.

The ROM 0 model I have has a far better keyboard than the original.

 

[retr01]

One thing, the IIc+ has the beep wrong because it boots at 4 MHz rather than 1 MHz. It can have a switch between 1 MHz and 4 MHz.

Deaccelerating The Apple IIc Plus

The Apple IIc Plus is arguably – very arguably from my experience – the best Apple II computer ever made. It’s portable, faster than the IIe, had a much higher capacity built-in d…

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Running at 1 MHz is essential for properly operating Apple II games and sounds.

On a side note, the Apple IIe Card for specific Macintosh models can switch between 1 and 1.9 MHz and access the Mac's internal 3.5" drive. So, the Apple IIc+ is arguably the fastest Apple II at 4 MHz without an accelerator.

 

[retr01]

BMoW Floppy EMU can be used with both IIc and compact Macs with a floppy port - though you have to select which platform to use.

Yeah, easier to have two BMOW Floppy EMUs, one for Mac and the other for Apple II if you want to use both because at this time, the firmware for those different disk systems cannot be on there at the same time. As for using that with the IIc, you can get this adapter as a convenience option.

 

[retr01]

• Can a Macintosh interact with a IIc 3.5" floppy at all? Like making images, transferring files, etc. I have an SE/30, and if I can use that to make new disks, that'd be a huge plus.

Yes. The SWIM in the SE/30 with appropriate System software and INITs such as System 7 and Macintosh PC Exchange 2.0 can support 800k ProDOS disks.

 

[rjkucia]

I don't have a Floppy EMU for my Mac, I have a BlueSCSI, PiSCSI, and networking set up so it's easy to transfer files there. It sounds like that would be useful for a II, although if I'm able to use the floppy drive/ADT/serial/cassette in, that'd probably be sufficient.

 

[retr01]

One thing to keep in mind, while there are modern options nowadays, the IIc and IIc+ were not designed to have expansion options back in the day. That is what the Apple IIe and Apple IIgs were for back then when the Apple IIc and IIc+ were available.

Yet, the Apple IIc and IIc+ were truly portable Apple II computers besides the Laser 128 clone.

As for a more portable display, @Javmast3r helped to set up a modern LCD for the IIc.

 

[Patrick]

as far as getting software on an Apple II you could play with apple II game server

Apple II's can load software via a tape interface. So you can use this website to play the music of software. that can load into the Apple II. (you can use your phone with a headphone cable to load in games from this website)

i second the floppy EMU. super cool. ^ but thats a way to play with a new Apple II .. more so if all you have is the unit and no working drives.

 

[rjkucia]

as far as getting software on an Apple II you could play with apple II game server

Thanks - that's the exact site I had in mind for loading over the tape port!

 

[Daniel Hansen]

• Can a Macintosh interact with a IIc 3.5" floppy at all? Like making images, transferring files, etc. I have an SE/30, and if I can use that to make new disks, that'd be a huge plus.

I don't have a IIc+, but I do know you can write ProDOS images to floppy in System 7, as I've done it for the IIGS many times. (It's been a while though, so the specifics are not front of mind). It does require making sure they're in the correct format, but it's certainly doable. Alternatively, you can use ADTPro for the same task from your modern machine.

• Are the serial ports between the II and the Mac compatible? They both *look* like LocalTalk - can you hook them up together and transfer files/network/etc that way?

No LocalTalk. / Appletalk. (I don't believe there's a way to netboot a IIc+, happy to be wrong).

• The IIc+ looks pretty hard to find. The IIc looks a little easier to find but the ones I see are usually pretty expensive. I'd be looking to spend <$200, ideally closer to $100 for an Apple II. Is that unrealistic for a IIc (plus or otherwise)? Are there other Apple II models that are less desired or more common that I'd have more luck with?

IIc+ is rare and typically sell for several hundred. IIc's on the other hand are plentiful, and should be able to find one for $100-130 without too much trouble, sometimes less. In fact, IIc's are usually cheaper than any other Apple II model, except for maybe non-enhanced IIe's ... but with a IIc you don't have to worry about cards.... though you can't really expand them either, so pros/cons.

The only 'downside' of the IIc is the 5.25" drive if you don't have the media, but 5.25" disks are certainly still available if you look around. The floppy emu though may be the better long-term solution (except that it's going to cost just as much as the IIc itself).

 

[Daniel Hansen]

Thanks - that's the exact site I had in mind for loading over the tape port!

Just note the IIc doesn't have cassette i/o

 

[rjkucia]

IIc+ is rare and typically sell for several hundred. IIc's on the other hand are plentiful, and should be able to find one for $100-130 without too much trouble, sometimes less.

Yeah that'd be an ideal price range - I'll keep an eye out for them!

Just note the IIc doesn't have cassette i/o

Thanks, I had seen that - which is fine, since it sounds like ADT works really well.

 

[eric]

One nice thing about the IIc is it has smartport built in - so you can use a little cheap SmartportSD to drop something like Total Replay.po file on it and boot into a 32mb file with a ton of games. https://tinkerdifferent.com/threads/smartportsd-lets-build-it.454/

 

[Daniel Hansen]

If you're keen on the IIc, note that there are two models - the AS4000 and AS4100... AS4100's all have ALPS keyboard switches, and *most* of the AS4000's have significantly crappier keyboards (using a kind of metal clip for tactility)... some AS4000's though have the ALPS switches, and I believe you can tell by the label on the underside... if it's a 'stamped' label, then I'm reasonably sure it'll have ALPS. Note though that these ALPS versions sell for more, but I think it's worth keeping an eye out for because it does make a big difference if you plan on typing a lot.

Once you get your IIc, you'll benefit from installing the 4X ROM - easy to find if you don't have your own burner.

 

[Daniel Hansen]

Yeah that'd be an ideal price range - I'll keep an eye out for them!

Here's an auction to keep an eye on... comes with ROM 4X installed already and a boot disk and ADT Pro disk. It's also a stamped label 4000, so *could* be ALPS - no guarantee. https://www.ebay.com/itm/325597240499?epid=1100343047&hash=item4bcf1b9cb3:gmgAAOSwtgFkJ03m&amdata=enc:AQAHAAAA4MbeHV6eLUDzCqB5a/YniIAzvJnku1QmgKTe273rvdDgoGoSVMYpTS9cm33W7d6qwE2Lu78l1XXsc4tGIox/5mKSjAstv8dfADqF4CTRYFxylJX8m171ED0NppUKl4D6legzuvq6EWxuK0a+tomW7uI8iFkOdDEIVU4ts1DYkOOfDJWy6mBMAQnV4UX7E33lQnlIM1mWl7Z7/NeEmeJonIjq8h9LUEOI8NiHRGuwPfbYUQxInIdSVRsCO2pYPikOFRNpdrbLNvbKw4NZMaNq2jJI+GE0IhZKwJWLiEddQtu8|tkp:Bk9SR5rC44jpYQ

 

[rjkucia]

Here's an auction to keep an eye on... comes with ROM 4X installed already and a boot disk and ADT Pro disk. It's also a stamped label 4000, so *could* be ALPS - no guarantee.

I saw that auction - that's a great price and it looks to be in good condition, but there's still 4 days left on the auction, so who knows what will happen in that time. I'll set up notifications for it though!

 

[retr01]

The OldNet WiFi modem should work with the Apple IIc's serial port with the correct cabling.

Use ProTerm to set it up. Then, the next thing is setting up an FTP server on your modern computer and need to find a program like an FTP client for the Apple II to do file transfers as an alternative to the ADTPro thingy. And you have WiFi! "Look, Ma, no wires!"

 

[retr01]

No LocalTalk. / Appletalk. (I don't believe there's a way to netboot a IIc+, happy to be wrong).

The IIc has 5-pin DIN serial ports that could plug in a modem, such as the OldNet WiFi. An adapted cable would be needed like this. So, it is a different type of serial connection on the back of the IIc.

Yet, the IIc *could* have been on an AppleTalk network as explained in an article by the Apple ][ history website, "Rudimentary firmware was also included to [allow] the IIc to be attached to an AppleTalk network (a message that said 'AppleTalk Offline' would appear if you typed “PR#7” from BASIC), but it was never completed, and did not appear in future revisions of the IIc ROMs." In the subsequent ROM revisions, Apple moved the mouse from slot four to slot seven space to make room for memory expansion in slot four space.

Interestingly, the IIc+ has the same 8-pin Mini-DIN serial connectors as found on the IIgs and Macs.

 

[retr01]

Another modern solution, FijiNet, can be used on either the IIc or IIc+ with SD storage and WiFi. @Javmast3r showed this at VCF-East in 2022.

 

[retr01]

it sounds like ADT works really well.

ADTPro is a great option to hook up to a modern computer. For example, for the IIc, you may need a specific serial cable from the 5-pin DIN to the DB-9. I think the IIc+ should be able to use the 8-pin Mini DIN to DB-9 cable.

Apple IIc ADTPro Serial adapter Cable for Disk Transfer Bootstrap | eBay

With ADTPro and this cable YOU DO NOT NEED A BOOT DISK to run ADTPRO! Using the software available on the ADTPro website you can Bootstrap your apple IIc. This cable features a DIN-5 pin male connector on the IIc end and a DB-9 pin female connector on the opposite end.

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