Mystic Options

[YMK]

@JDW

The error was useful in rejecting DiskCopy images in older firmware that did not support DiskCopy image conversion.

Correction: The partial-sector images are mounted anyway and the error code is set as a warning.

 

[retr01]

Unless someone actually did memory remapping and saving a group of locations in memory to pause whatever in a program and then switching to a launcher (Bixby or whatever) and then loading another program like multitasking in ProDOS, that is a pretty tall order. However, with the Mac, updates could be done to the Apple IIe control panel to make that possible. Unfortunately, as @BFEXTU says, the Apple IIe card is black-boxed as it was a research project back in the day. I suspect it died after Apple underwent major surgery with Doc Steve Jobs holding the scalpel, a metaphor of Apple's shaking up after Jobs' return.

 

[retr01]

Well, it looks like there are some folks now working on multitasking for the Apple II series.

GitHub - A2osX/A2osX: Multi Tasking OS for Apple IIe //c IIgs

Multi Tasking OS for Apple IIe //c IIgs. Contribute to A2osX/A2osX development by creating an account on GitHub.

github.com

 

[JDW]

Well, if you watch a few seconds of the video below from time stamp 2:46, it seems clear that everybody is restarting the machine when switching Total Replay games. Pretty crazy to me as a Mac user. I didn't realize how limited the Apple II series was. Wow.

 

[retr01]

Yeah, @JDW. ProDOS and DOS 3.3 from Apple did not have multitasking. I guess exactly what you said inspired a group of folks to create a multitasking kernel for the Apple II.

"a cooperative, event-driven multitasking kernel (meaning it is applications that are responsible to give back control to the kernel) Its principal goal is to collect all “genius” 65c02 pieces of code ever written here and there, concentrated in the same environment. (including IP Stack & HTTPD/TELNETD…, GUI & graphical tools…) “Complete working place”, no needing any more to reboot to switch between tons of diskettes!!!"

Multitasking Operating System for the Apple II

Over the past year or so, Remy Gibert has been working on a multi-tasking operating system for the Apple II. The system, which appears to be much like Unix / Linux, is well into development with a good portion of the system completed. The goal of A2osX as Remy has named his fledgling operating...

www.callapple.org

 

[YMK]

Just sent @JDW a modified image. The ones flagged by MacSD (2mg) do not appear to be raw.

 

[retr01]

You should try one thing on the Apple IIe card, @JDW. An actual Apple II Desktop! I know I mentioned GEOS earlier. I was not thinking straight. I meant this one. Yep, it should work with the Apple IIe card for the Mac.

Apple II DeskTop

Apple II DeskTop is a graphical file and disk manager with desk accessories for the Apple II line of computers. Also known as Mouse Desk. Apple (or compatible) with 128k and double hi-res graphics: Apple IIe, IIc, IIc Plus, IIgs, IIe Option Card for Mac, Laser 128, or Franklin ACE 2X00/500. ... or

www.a2desktop.com

Apple II Desktop Updated

The Apple II Desktop has been updated. Version 1.2 Alpha 48 includes a ton of updates. The program is now available in eight languages. Updated features include: General Added Sample.Media folder with some samples of various file types.Improved appearance of keyboard shortcuts in buttons.Improve...

www.callapple.org

 

[JDW]

Apple IIe Card & MacSD Composite 2nd Test

 

[YMK]

That's good news, @JDW. There's nothing special about the .raw file name. A dsk or img extension would work just as well.

MacSD will allow writing to that volume. The lock may apply to the individual file or the volume.

I didn't find those floppies in Ron's notes. If you send me those, I'll take a look inside.

 

[JDW]

I didn't find those floppies in Ron's notes. If you send me those, I'll take a look inside.

Sorry for not having adequately clarified earlier. Here's a selective copy/paste from the text description under Ron's great video here...

Required Downloads:​

​

1. PRODOS Boot Image (or the PROD bootable image of your choice) https://downloads.reactivemicro.com/A...​

​

2. Total Replay - NOTE: Version 4.01 was used in the production of this video https://archive.org/details/TotalReplay​

​

Optional (but helpful) Downloads:​

​

3. Stock PRODOS 8 (v2.4.2) Boot Image... in case you don't like mine in the example.​

(The one below includes Bitsy Bye, ADTPro, and other great stuff)​

https://prodos8.com/​

(I added the 1, 2, 3 for clarity.) When you click the above links (top down, from 1 to 3), you will see this...

1. PRODOS Boot Image (which doesn't work on MacSD until converted to .raw, thanks to YMK)​

​

2. Total Replay...​

​

3. Stock PRODOS 8 (v.2.4.2)...​

The other 3 files (which have nothing to do with Ron's video), shown in my two videos in this thread, were copied off the stock FloppyEMU SD card by me, from the Apple II folder. In keeping with my "shortest path to victory" theme, here's a ZIP archive of my MacSD composite folder, and my INI file.

UPDATE #1: I am using System 7.1. I just installed PC Exchange (DL#5) from Macintosh Garden and rebooted, but I still get the Initialize dialogs for 3 of the 6 images, as shown in my two videos in this thread. I had the understanding that PC Exchange would allow the mounting of ProDOS images, so I am confused as to why I am still getting those Initialize error dialogs. Any advice on this matter would be greatly appreciated.

UPDATE #2: I rebooted my CC Mystic into OS 8.1, which has PC Exchange v2.2 installed, and I get the same Initialize dialog for the same 3 images as I do in System 7.1, with the other 3 images mounting fine on the Desktop. NOTE: you cannot use OS 8.1 with the IIe Card because 8.1 forces on 32-bit addressing, which is not compatible with the IIe Card. This is why I prefer to use System 7.1.

 

[JDW]

I tested out BlueSCSI just now using only (1) the aforementioned *.raw image and (2) the Total Replay image, both of which mount fine when placed in a MacSD composite folder. (My ZIP file contains both of those.) BlueSCSI log file (for @eric ) is shown below. Interestingly, the Total Replay image is deemed "not an image" but the .raw file is not categorized that way, yet the .raw file will not mount when I get to the Desktop. AFAIK, filenames on a BlueSCSI SD card no longer need to be .hda as of the Dec. 2021 v1.1 firmware update, and you will note below that I am using v1.1 June 2022. So I am guessing that BlueSCSI simply cannot handle non-Mac volumes like these, which is why neither mount.

BlueSCSI <-> SD - https://github.com/erichelgeson/BlueSCSI
VERSION: 1.1-20220626-USB
DEBUG:0 SDFAT_FILE_TYPE:3
SdFat version: 2.1.2
Sd Format: exFAT
SPI speed: 50Mhz
SdFat Max FileName Length: 32
Initialized SD Card - lets go!
Sd MID:41 OID:42
Sd Name:SD16G
Sd Date:10/2012
Sd Serial:3627155456
 - HD10_ProDOS8.raw / 33553920bytes / 32767KiB / 31MiB
Not an image:
 - HD20_TotalReplayv5.0a4.hdv / 33553920bytes / 32767KiB / 31MiB
ID:LUN0:
 0:----:
 1: 512:
 2: 512:
 3:----:
 4:----:
 5:----:
 6:----:
Finished initialization of SCSI Devices - Entering main loop.

 

[eric]

So I am guessing that BlueSCSI simply cannot handle non-Mac volumes like these, which is why neither mount.

BlueSCSI knows nothing about the volumes, just serves the requested raw bytes. I'm guessing that since it is a raw prodos partition there is no scsi driver or partition map, so macos has no idea what to do with it.

Total Replay image is deemed "not an image"

It seems like there is some other file on that SD card, maybe locked or with a non-printable character name or something? The not an image should say a name after it, it does not apply to the next line.

 

[JDW]

Apple HD SC Setup (oddly) creates partitions that are 1kb smaller than 32MB - see Ron's video about 10 min in - 32,767/1024 != 32MB (32,768 is 32MB). The result of the partition being 1kb short is we cant just byte for byte copy a 32MB partition into it. There is no limitations in the OS for this, or anywhere else, it's just the partitioning utility.

I am finding what seems to indeed be an "OS limitation," @eric . I used ShrinkWrap v. 3.5.1 running in System 7.5.5 to create a 32768K image (while the "ProDOS File System" extension was loaded). I specifically told ShrinkWrap to create a ProDOS image (no compression), however, I can confirm that the resulting image is in fact HFS, based on two observations:

1. The resulting image has the 2 hidden desktop files on it (ProDOS images don't)
2. There is no "II" in the mounted disk icon, which there is if it is indeed ProDOS.

Also, when I mount the image and click Special > Erase Disk... in the Finder, then try to erase it as ProDOS, it won't. The image vanishes off the Desktop. When I repeat this multiple times, either one of two things happens:

1. It mounts as the same HFS image it was before, or
2. I get an Initialize (can't read) error dialog the next time I try to mount it.

However, if I use ShrinkWrap to make a smaller image of 32767K or less, then I can mount it and use Special > Erase Disk... to erase it as ProDOS, and then it mounts with the "II" in the icon!!

It doesn't matter if I choose the ShrinkWrap 3.x image file format or Apple Disk Copy 6.x file format, etc. The same result occurs. It all depends on the file size of the image.

By the way, in order to get ShrinkWrap to create an image of exactly 32678K, you must use a Custom size of 33295K...

And here is how the resulting image looks in MacTools 7.2 when mounted...

32700K + 68K = 32768K, but you can see it is HFS, not ProDOS!!!!

What this proves is that it isn't just Apple HD SD Setup which refuses to create a true ProDOS image larger than 32767K. ShrinkWrap also has the same failing.

 

[JDW]

So far, my BlueSCSI tests have ended in failure.

Today, I downloaded a 32MB blank ProDOS image from SavageTaylor here. I first tried it with MacSD as a regular disk image, but it wouldn't mount. I then put it inside my Composite folder and found it would mount. I then proceeded to copy files from the Total Reply image to the SavageTaylor blank, but even without copying the Demo folder, the copy ended in failure due to lack of space. Upon closer examination in MacTools 7.2, I see that select files are larger on the SavageTaylor blank (destination disk) than on the original Total Replay disk...



(Bottom right is the Total Replay original. Note the smaller 74.5K file size for that one file, versus the SavageTaylor destination disk which is 80.5K!)

So the version 5 alpha of Total Replay is even worse than the one Ron used, and since the version Ron use is absolutely nowhere to be found, I don't see any nice solution to this, except to use MacSD. FloppyEMU might work, but I await a solution from Kay Koba on that front in order to test.

Some files were copied to the SavageTaylor blank, so I put that on my BlueSCSI, booted off my spinner drive and was disappointed, but not surprised to see it did not mount. The related excerpt from the BlueSCSI log file says this...

Not an image:
 - HD20_ProDOS_1.dsk / 33553920bytes / 32767KiB / 31MiB

 

[eric]

So far, my BlueSCSI tests have ended in failure.

@JDW Did you read the reply above that addresses the issues you stated? Following a variant of Ron's procedure (which I mentioned earlier in this thread) is how I'm using my CC with BlueSCSI.

 

[JDW]

@JDW Did you read the reply above that addresses the issues you stated? Following a variant of Ron's procedure (which I mentioned earlier in this thread) is how I'm using my CC with BlueSCSI.

Thank you for the reply, Eric. I went through all 3 pages of this thread searching for "eric" and gleaned the following 2 bits of info from you, which state that the FloppyEMU was an integral part of your solution, as well as using "the copy utility on the Apple II"...

Post #28

I've used the IIe Card with my FloppyEMU and SmartPort - no issues.

Post #33

The way I made the BlueSCSI premade image was to boot off FloppyEMU with Total Replay and used a copy utility on the Apple II to manually copy the files - not the partition or file system, to the 1kb smaller partition. This is essentially what Ron does in the video about the 18 min mark, just using the Finder and Disk Copy mounting the image (much easier, and what you should do)

But as I said, I am not using my FloppyEMU on my CC yet, because I don't have an external floppy disk connector on my LC575 motherboard Mystic. I am getting a FlippyFloppy from Kay to address that issue, but I am still waiting for it to arrive. So my FloppyEMU testing is on hold and I am testing everything else at the moment.

To be honest, it would be great if the creators of the aforementioned images would also create a variant that plays well with BlueSCSI so people don't have to fiddle around with the time consuming and mundane task of copying files just to get the images to work on BlueSCSI.

MacSD is largely working without the file-copy hassles due to having a Composite feature. I just download the Total Replay image AS IS, copy that into a Composite folder on MacSD (pointed to in the .ini file), and then it will mount and can be used -- super easy! But even with MacSD, one of the files (ProDOS8.2mg) had to be converted to a .raw file by YMK to work on MacSD. Also, the ProDOS floppy images aren't working yet in Composite mode on MacSD because the current MacSD firmware requires that Composite images "be a multiple of 512 bytes, so it cannot end on a partial sector." And since I don't have access to the truncate command YMK mentioned earlier, I wasn't able to resolve that "partial sector" limitation, which means I would need to wait for a firmware mod to test that.

I want to show "fast and easy methods" in my forthcoming video on this subject when it comes to using a (1) BlueSCSI, (2) MacSD and (3) FloppyEMU. Why? Because I've found is that most people don't tend to try things at all unless they are easy, which is why I've said I am trying various things to find the "shortest path to victory" for anyone who obtains an Apple IIe Card and wants to get something enjoyable working on it in the least amount of time.

But going back to the slow and mundane tasks that are currently required, @eric ...
Since I am still brain dead when it comes to the Apple II (but learning!), could you please tell me the exact name of the "copy utility" you used on your "Apple II" to perfectly copy all the Total Replay files to one of the 32MB SavageTaylor blank images, and not have space limitations on the blank image?

The thing about using an Apple II as a "file copy solution" for this issue is that if someone doesn't already have their IIe Card up and running, they could not use the "copy utility" (whatever that is) to do the file copies.

 

[retr01]

@JDW, this was developed more recently by some Apple II experts:

Home

ProDOS-8 is the operating system for Apple II computers.

prodos8.com

They discuss Copy Plus utility program for the Apple II series:

Copy II Plus 8.5

ProDOS-8 is the operating system for Apple II computers.

prodos8.com

There is an excellent book that I highly recommend for you that provides a lot of overview of many things related to Apple II, including software:

The New Apple II User's Guide - 40th Anniversary 1977-2017

 

[retr01]

The thing about using an Apple II as a "file copy solution" for this issue is that if someone doesn't already have their IIe Card up and running, they could not use the "copy utility" (whatever that is) to do the file copies.

I agree with you. There should be better solutions for the Macintosh to deal with ProDOS. I know Macintosh utilities can format media to ProDOS, but that is not enough. Of course, there are Apple II emulators for the Macintosh under System 7 through macOS 9 and another one for System 7 and earlier. Then, those haven't been updated for years. I haven't begun to look into those and see what kind of bugs they have.

 

[JDW]

@retr01
Thank you. Until @eric chimes in, I will assume he used either Copy II Plus 8.5, downloaded from your link, or version 9.x of the same, as taken from the FloppyEMU.

I must admit this has turned into a somewhat frustrating experience, probably due to my lack of knowledge about the Apple II.

I first of all want to know why copying all files from one ProDOS disk to a blank ProDOS disk using the MacOS Finder with the ProDOS extension installed (which IN THEORY makes the Mac fully recognize ProDOS files), REQUIRES MORE SPACE than doing the same exact file copy from within the Apple II environment. To me, that makes absolutely no sense at all. None. Zero. Indeed, I would be inclined to view it as a "bug" in the Mac's ProDOS compatibility extension. How can you claim ProDOS compatibility if you can't copy the same files into the same amount of disk space when using two (Source and Destination) ProDOS volumes? That's one big frustration right there!

Yet another frustration is that while composing this reply to you and going through my previously posted links, I see the reactivemicro website is down. :-( Gee. That's nice.

Anyway... I previously I posted this (Post #50)...

1. PRODOS Boot Image (or the PRODOS bootable image of your choice) https://downloads.reactivemicro.com/A...​

(YMK kindly converted "ProDOS8.2mg" to "ProDOS8.raw" for me, which allowed MacSD to finally mount it. I don't know the procedure used to make it .raw.)​

​

2. Total Replay - NOTE: Version 4.01 was used in the production of this video https://archive.org/details/TotalReplay​

(MacSD can only mount this image when it is placed in a "Composite" folder. See MacSD manual for details.)​

​

Optional (but helpful) Downloads:​

3. Stock PRODOS 8 (v2.4.2) Boot Image... in case you don't like mine in the example.​

(The one below includes Bitsy Bye, ADTPro, and other great stuff)​

https://prodos8.com/​

(So far, I've not been able to mount that image.)​

​

( UPDATE: While editing this post, the reactivemicro website came back up. Curious how much down time it experiences. )

As I showed everyone in one of my earlier videos, I was able to pull Copy II Plus 9.x off my FloppyEMU's SD card. (I cannot directly attach my FloppyEMU right now because there's no external floppy connector on the LC575 MB.) I put that Copy II Plus 9.x image (from FloppyEMU) into my MacSD Composite folder, which thankfully mounted it. Without the MacSD, I'd be dead in the water! All hail, MacSD!

Despite that, I can't even get Bitsy Bye to load. Instead I get Bitsy Boot to load, but that seems to be something different. The good news is that thanks to having the Copy II Plus 9.x (aka CII+) image from my FloppyEMU, I can mount CII+ using MacSD and then double-click the appropriate app icon to get it to load in the Apple IIe environment, without me needing to study how to dig down into directories manually.

So when I have time today, I will play with CCII+ (from the FloppyEMU, running off MacSD) and see if I can figure out how to use it to do a complete file copy from the Total Replay image to the SavageTaylor 32MB ProDOS blank image. That's probably easier said than done. But even if I am successful, I cannot help but feel it to be all very fiddly and bothersome. Only the geekiest of geeks would probably want to try that mess.

Again, it would be ideal (yet not impossible) if the creator of Total Replay could make the required image that would be friendly with SCSI to SD solutions. For truly, if the resulting image can mount on BlueSCSI, it could then also mount on MacSD in the normal way -- no Composite feature required. And as to how Total Replay can be used on the FloppyEMU, well, I need to wait for Kay Koba's FlippyFloppy to arrive so I can at last have an external floppy disk connector to which to attach the FloppyEMU. (FlippyFloppy is an amazing product because it lets you flip a toggle switch to choose either the stock real floppy drive or the FloppyEMU.)

---

@eric
I am reading through the Copy II Plus v9 manual right now. If you used that CII+ to do your successful file copy (the entire aim of which is to create an image that will be mountable using BlueSCSI), could you please tell me if you used Disk or File copy...

 

[YMK]

the ProDOS floppy images aren't working yet in Composite mode on MacSD because the current MacSD firmware requires that Composite images "be a multiple of 512 bytes, so it cannot end on a partial sector."

After the .raw file conversion, none of your images ended in a partial sector, which is why the error code was cleared. Like I mentioned, the error does not exclude the image, but indicates "This probably isn't going to work".

The Castle Wolfenstein and Donkey Kong images do not appear to be ProDOS, but its predecessor Apple DOS. Unless your extensions support Apple DOS, the images won't mount on your Mac.

The file sizes suggest a 5.25" Apple DOS floppy:
Castle Wolfenstein: 1 side * 35 tracks * 16 sectors * 256B per sector = 143360 bytes
Donkey Kong: 2 sides * 35 tracks * 13 sectors * 256B per sector = 232960 bytes