Radius Rocket & Radius Thunder 24/GT compatible?

[JDW]

Would any of you know where I can find a video card compatibility list for the Radius Rocket?

More specifically, I am curious if the Radius Thunder 24/GT NuBus graphics card can be installed at the same time as a Rocket in a Mac IIci. I know the Thunder 24/GT works fine alone because I have it installed right now in my IIci. I simply don't yet have a Rocket to know if it is compatible with the graphics card. Sure, we can "assume" that since both are "Radius" products they should be compatible. But I believe the Rocket came out in 1991 and the Thunder 24/GT a couple years later.

 

[slomacuser]

Some info can be read here in Q&A section

Vintage Box : Radius(.com)

machut.net

 

[JDW]

@slomacuser
Thank you for your kindness. Unfortunately, that was one of the links I had Googled up prior to writing my opening post. The relevant pages on that site are these:

Rocket Q&A

#3620 Radius Rockets Q&A May 26, 1995

machut.net

Thunder 24/GT Q&A

Thunder IV GX Cards Q&A

machut.net

But the Rocket Q&A makes no mention of the Thunder, and the Thunder Q&A makes no mention of the Rocket. So basically, you are still left wondering if the two are compatible.

 

[JDW]

On a somewhat different yet related note, having the two cards installed in a IIci is pushing the limits of the NuBus power allotment.

IIci Technical Reference info:


So +5V @6A for all 3 slots.

Power requirements of the Thunder 24/GT video card shown to be +5V @2.2A:


Power requirements of the Radius Rocket vary by RAM and CPU clock speed, but at 33MHz with 32MB of RAM, it draws 3.0A:



So, 3 + 2.2 = 5.2A, with the limit for all slots being 6.0A. That leaves no room for any other cards, really.

It also says the cache slot is limited to 1.0A, which is interesting because the IIci can use a DayStar Turbo040, and I currently have one installed. Can't find any info that says how much the T040 draws though. I did read one blog article blog article where the author says he had 2 Rockets installed along side a Turbo040 in the cache slot! He seemed to have 20MB of RAM installed in each Rocket at one point, with each Rocket running a full FPU 040 at 33MHz, which means each Rocket was drawing roughly 3.0A, or 6.0A combined -- the very limit of NuBus on the IIci, while also having that Turbo040 installed. Very interesting.

 

[Fizzbinn]

I wonder if those limits only apply when using the original spec IIci power supply and if you have a newer, higher rated one you might have more power that the Nubus slots could use. The same power supply form factor was used in the IIcx, IIci, IIvx, Q700, C/Q650 and PM7100 with the later ones coming with higher rated power supplies. ...of course new solutions like ATX PS conversions could likely provide even more power.

We might need to check with Scotty though to see if that might overload the power grid.

 

[KennyPowers]

blog article blog article where the author says he had 2 Rockets installed along side a Turbo040 in the cache slot! He seemed to have 20MB of RAM installed in each Rocket at one point, with each Rocket running a full FPU 040 at 33MHz, which means each Rocket was drawing roughly 3.0A, or 6.0A combined -- the very limit of NuBus on the IIci, while also having that Turbo040 installed. Very interesting.

I'm running a Turbo040, 128MB LB RAM, 128MB Stage II Rocket, RasterOps Paintboard Prism GT, and Farallon NIC in my IIci with the original Astec PSU (recapped), and everything is stable...no signs of a warp core breach.

So, while I can't answer your video card compatibility question, I have anecdotal evidence that you probably won't have to worry about power consumption.

 

[JDW]

Thank you for the feedback, @KennyPowers .

Interestingly enough, the only graphics card incompatibility information I could find, pertaining to the Radius Rocket, had to do with RasterOps video cards. Keyword search the article below for “rasterops”:

Radius Rocket Review | Low End Mac

lowendmac.com

 

[Branchus]

Would any of you know where I can find a video card compatibility list for the Radius Rocket?

More specifically, I am curious if the Radius Thunder 24/GT NuBus graphics card can be installed at the same time as a Rocket in a Mac IIci. I know the Thunder 24/GT works fine alone because I have it installed right now in my IIci. I simply don't yet have a Rocket to know if it is compatible with the graphics card. Sure, we can "assume" that since both are "Radius" products they should be compatible. But I believe the Rocket came out in 1991 and the Thunder 24/GT a couple years later.

Hi James, I'm pretty sure I have both, so I'll check for you.

 

[JDW]

Hi James, I'm pretty sure I have both, so I'll check for you.

Thank you for your kind willingness to check, Bruce!

 

[Branchus]

Thank you for your kind willingness to check, Bruce!

I'm really sorry James, but I couldn't find my Radius Thunder 24/GT anywhere. I'm pretty sure I have one, but it must be installed in one of the Macs I have in storage.

Most of the display cards I've tried with the Radius Rocket have worked fine, but I do recall one of them didn't unfortunately I don't recall which one that was. Sorry I couldn't be of more help!

 

[JDW]

Radius Rocket is now in the house.

The Rocket Q&A and this page on LEM say the Rocket works only with Sound Manager 2.0, not Sound Manager 3.0.

In what download can I find Sound Manager 2.0?

 

[Douglas]

From what I gather, the Thunder 24/GT works well on its own in your Mac IIci, so there's a good chance it'll work alongside the Rocket. Often, if there are any compatibility issues, users tend to share their experiences online, so searching through forums or tech communities might yield some useful insights.

 

[JDW]

From what I gather, the Thunder 24/GT works well on its own in your Mac IIci, so there's a good chance it'll work alongside the Rocket. Often, if there are any compatibility issues, users tend to share their experiences online, so searching through forums or tech communities might yield some useful insights.

The Thunder 24/GT works well alone in a Mac IIci, or with a Daystar Turbo040 in the cache slot, or with an Apple cache card in the cache slot, or with a Radius rocket, regardless of what is in the cache slot.

Note that I put the Rocket into the NuBus slot closed to the left side plastic case, and I put my Thunder 24/GT video card in the slot closest to the cache slot. That leaves a larger air gap between the two hot cards, which I feel is important for better cooling.

I put the Rocket into the outer slot based on things I read online saying that would be the best slot to put it in.

 

[bcl]

I'm running a Turbo040, 128MB LB RAM, 128MB Stage II Rocket, RasterOps Paintboard Prism GT, and Farallon NIC in my IIci with the original Astec PSU (recapped), and everything is stable...no signs of a warp core breach.

So, while I can't answer your video card compatibility question, I have anecdotal evidence that you probably won't have to worry about power consumption.

You curated the parts for a really nice machine there!

 

[KennyPowers]

You curated the parts for a really nice machine there!

Not me. Most of those items were already in that machine when I inherited it. Just fortunate.

 

[JDW]

Still have no idea where to find the Rocket-compatible Sound Manger version 2.0, so if any of you do, please don't hold back.

Separately from that...

I found the RAM buffer (and Parity checker) ICs get hotter than the CPU on the Rocket.

Datasheet: https://www.datasheetbank.com/pdf-view/74F657-Philips.pdf

 

[joethezombie]

Hi JDW, it's been a while!

From what I understand, Sound Manager is an API built into the system software. Sound Manager was released with System 6 and replaced the old mechanism of playing sounds, SoundDriver. Sound Manager 2.0 (or Enhanced Sound Manager) was released with System 6.0.7. Sound Manager 3.0 was first available as an extension or included with certain versions of QuickTime. It became part of the system with System 7.1 update 2. So if you need Sound Manager 2.0, don't install system software greater than System 7.1 Update 1, and be cautious with QuickTime.

The Rocket can use two types of support software. RocketWare (which I call "accelerator mode") is compatible up to System 7.1. If using a later System software version, you have to switch from RocketWare to RocketShare (which I call "distributed mode").

My Rocket came with several printouts of an old AOL support group thread. On one of the pages, it infers compatibility with Sound Manger 3.0 in RocketShare RocketWARE if you have a Nubus audio card (in this case, a MediaVision Pro Audio Spectrum 16):

Subj: Sound WORKS with Rocket33
Date: 95-03-09 09:29:35 EST
From: BioKev

The PAS 16 sound board in my MacII, with Sys 7.1, 12M RAM, FDHD upgrade and so on, works great. Sound Manager 3.0 also works fine. So much for technical knowledge on hardware. I understand Radius cannot try everything, but they should have tried somekind of NuBus sound board. As far as I know Media Vision is gone but who really needs technical support, I figured it out for myseli and so can you. When in doubt give it a try, you might be surprised. I surely was.

Game sounds play back pretty well, sometimes sound is truncated a bit depending on game, but at least the Rocket doesn't go to lunch. A slight degradation in speed is noticed, but having a "non-hanging Rocket" is well worth it. Sound input is no problem either with the PAS.

I can't predict this will work for all NuBus Rockets, but $49.90 from Tiger Software is the best money l've spent since the Rocket. I had no problems with Tiger either, ordered it and it arrived two days later.

Next step is to see if PAS will work with CD sounds.

Any questions Post or Mail them. I'll try to help.

BioKev

Hope that is a little helpful!

 

[JDW]

Hi JDW, it's been a while!

From what I understand, Sound Manager is an API built into the system software. Sound Manager was released with System 6 and replaced the old mechanism of playing sounds, SoundDriver. Sound Manager 2.0 (or Enhanced Sound Manager) was released with System 6.0.7. Sound Manager 3.0 was first available as an extension or included with certain versions of QuickTime. It became part of the system with System 7.1 update 2. So if you need Sound Manager 2.0, don't install system software greater than System 7.1 Update 1, and be cautious with QuickTime.

The Rocket can use two types of support software. RocketWare (which I call "accelerator mode") is compatible up to System 7.1. If using a later System software version, you have to switch from RocketWare to RocketShare (which I call "distributed mode").

My Rocket came with several printouts of an old AOL support group thread. One one of the pages, it infers compatibility with Sound Manger 3.0 in RocketShare if you have a Nubus audio card (in this case, a MediaVision Pro Audio Spectrum 16):



Hope that is a little helpful!

Some truly helpful info. Thank you, Joe!

If I clean install 7.1 or 7.1.1 Pro, it includes Sound control panel version 8.0, but no Sound Manager extension at all. You are basically telling me that means I have Sound Manager 2.0, hidden somewhere like inside the System file. Correct?

But the if I install Update 3 (skipping earlier updates), it installs Sound control panel 8.1 (or 8.01, I forgot which) and it installs Sound Manager 3.0 as an extension. My question to you is this…

If I clean install 7.1 and use only Uodate 3.0, then restore Sound control panel 8.0 and delete the Sound Manger 3.0 extension, do I have Sound Manager 2.0?

I am currently testing the Rocket as an Accelerator, which is what RocketWARE 1.5 is for on System 7. When that testing is done, I will remove RocketWare and install RocketSHARE in order to make the Rocket act as a second Mac inside a windowed environment. Meaning, with RocketSHARE, the only speed you get beyond the normal IIci speed comes when you run software within that windowed environment. Everything outside that windowed environment runs at normal IIci speeds (when your host Mac is a IIci like mine). At least, that is what I have read. I’ve not tested RocketSHARE yet.

 

[joethezombie]

First I would also like to clarify above when I stated:

My Rocket came with several printouts of an old AOL support group thread. On one of the pages, it infers compatibility with Sound Manger 3.0 in RocketShare if you have a Nubus audio card (in this case, a MediaVision Pro Audio Spectrum 16):

I meant to say RocketWARE. I haven't attempted using a Nubus audio card with RocketWARE myself, just thought I would relay the printout. (I edited the original post as well)

To your question, I don't know if restoring the previous control panel and removing the extension is good enough to remove Sound Manager 3.0, as I've never mucked around with the Sound Manager files myself. I can offer that in the Apple technical journal "Develop" issue 16 it says:

Sound Manager 3.0 has been made widely available.
The extension, control panel, and related files are not only on this issue’s CD but are also included in the Sound Manager Developer’s Kit v. 3.0 available from APDA, in Hardware System Update 2.0, with sound products from third parties, and on various electronic bulletin boards (such as CompuServe and America Online). Sound Manager 3.0 is built into some new Macintosh systems; you can tell it’s there if Sound Out is listed in the Sound control panel.

Which says to me that the Apple way of checking if Sound Manager 3.0 is active is to check the Sound Control Panel for the Sound Out option.

 

[JDW]

First I would also like to clarify above when I stated:

I meant to say RocketWARE. I haven't attempted using a Nubus audio card with RocketWARE myself, just though I would relay the printout. (I edited the original post as well)

To your question, I don't know if restoring the previous control panel and removing the extension is good enough to remove Sound Manager 3.0, as I've never mucked around with the Sound Manager files myself. I can offer that in the Apple technical journal "Develop" issue 16 it says:



Which says to me that the Apple way of checking if Sound Manager 3.0 is active is to check the Sound Control Panel for the Sound Out option.

Thank you for providing those details.

What I can say for now is that I have installed System 7.1 and Update 3.0, but I disabled the Sound Manager extension and I restored version 8.0 of the sound control panel. But I also confirmed that even if I use version 8.01 of the sound control panel, it doesn’t appear to be conflicting with my Rocket. But I haven’t played enough games to know if there will be a problem.

In fact, I have yet to read anything that tells me exactly what the Rocket will do if Sound Manager 3.0 is installed. Does the machine freeze? I’m not sure really what to look for. But so far, I’ve not run across any conflicts yet.

I can only say that I cannot also put my Daystar Turbo040 card in the cache slot. When I do that and try to boot, the machine freezes. I can use an Apple cache card and that works fine. And of course I can use my Daystar Turbo040 without the Rocket just fine. But again I’m using RocketWARE and I haven’t tested RocketSHARE yet.