MacEffects Appreciation Post

[JDW]

I might try to do more on Printables.

You probably should for the sake of "discoverability." When I search for 3D models, that's usually where I go. I often miss important threads like this one simply because when you don't know if an STL file exists only in a forum, you have to know which forum it might exist in, then use just the right search terms to find it. On the Printables site, it's easy to find a whole collection of Apple and Mac goodies really quickly. That's why I think having your excellent models both in a forum and on Printables too will surely help more people discover your handiwork.

I will go ahead and place my JLC order now, then report back when I've had a chance to test them out, not only on the stock analog board, but also on the 10K POT I bought from AliExpress (for use on the ZZJ Color LCD kit's A.B.).

 

[caver01]

discoverability

This is why I typically seach via thangs.com which aggregates multiple sites into the results vs. picking just one that aims to push support for a given brand of printers. Makerworld.com is another important fixture with the growing popularity of BambuLabs. A designer has to do a lot of repeat work to cover all the bases, and I don‘t really want to spend the time. Nevertheless, I may invest here or there depending on what it is I decide to share.

 

[JDW]

Well, my order is on indefinite hold due to this craziness...

That's 1:00am Japan time. And no, staying up that late didn't work. It's making me wait another day. I emailed them. They said that even if I am able to pay, it will take 5 days to process my order rather than the standard 3.

I believe I'll be checking PCBWay's 3D Printing service now.

 

[JDW]

Uploaded one STL at PCBWay and I'm already seeing things I don't like...

JLC3DP priced the same part under $6 for FDM, making PCBWay just over $2 more expensive for that one part alone. I guess that's for all the YouTube video Advertising they *ahem* we the customer pay for.

On the upside, PCBWay offers PETG, which JLC does not. And Nick Gillard (creator of that CRT Yoke Protector STL I am showing above), told me that PLA+ is what he prefers to print it in, but PETG should be a fallback rather than standard PLA. So there's merit to having PETG.

However...

Asking me to choose an "Infill" is bad news. I'm not a 3D modeling or 3D printing guy. I am somebody who can download a model in hopes of getting it cheaply printed. Yep. It's really that simple. Sure, I've read about what Infill is, but how in THE world do I know what Infill to choose when it's not specified by the STL designer? Guess? JLC never asks that and I always get great parts because they make good decisions about what infill to choose.

We then have more settings at PCBWay before even one STL file can be added to the Cart...

So let's see...

Not sure what the "Technical Drawing" is for because JLC doesn't ask for one, but it does seem optional, so I will just ignore it.

"Tap threads"? Have no idea what that is. JLC doesn't ask it, and my orders with them are always just fine.

"Inserts"? Again... No idea.

At least "Part Marking" has a little "?" icon that I can click on to get an explanation — something I don't need and can ignore, I see.

We then have "Parts assembly" which has an explanation that I still don't fully understand...

I guess that is for designs that have multiple pieces to them and you want PCBWay to put all the pieces together? (Again, JLC doesn't ask that.)

Their Wall thickness requirements...

Glad to see you can take all risks and get prints made anyway because almost every single STL I've found out there seems to have at least one teensy tiny section that is thinner than 0.8mm.

Then if I switch filaments, I see they do not offer PA12-CF (Carbon Fiber reinforced) like JLC does:

And lastly, checking the BRIGHTNESS KNOB STL without Brim, I am pleased to see that PCBWay does't have the same nutty "min. size" restrictions that JLC has, but man, that price for otherwise cheap PLA is crazy...

The Brim version of that Knob printed in PA12-CF (Carbon Fiber reinforced) on JLC costs $3.00, making PCBWay more than double the price for just PLA! The price differential is so huge you have to second guess yourself and ask, "Did I do something wrong here?" Wow.

SUMMARY
PCBWay offers PETG, which is nice, but there are more questions to answer and prices are higher (in some cases, much higher) versus JLC. PCBWay seems more suited to 3D printing experts who know what they're doing and people who are willing to pay more for magically better prints. I base the later on observations of 100% transparent parts I've seen printed at JLC versus PCBWay, where PCBWay had a slightly better print overall.

And so, I will simply wait my turn at JLC3DP and process my current order with them.

 

[Dave928]

it will take 5 days to process my order rather than the standard 3.

I believe I'll be checking PCBWay's 3D Printing service now.

all my clear parts from PCBWAY say 4-6 days, so no time savings there.

the non-clear parts (ABS, PLA) all say 2-3 days.

 

[caver01]

Interesting. I appreciate the simplified perspective you have enjoyed using JLC, but honestly, these options are much better to be able to control, even if they require you to invest in understanding them. Something like infill for example . . . JLC is making that decision for you, as well as wall thickness (which is for solid areas, not areas of models that happen to have thin spots). This is important because the part’s performance in a given circumstance will depend on that circumstance in combination with wall thickness and infill. I am surprised they don’t let you specify the type of infill (grid, honeycomb, gyroid).

Now, you can live in ignorance of some of these details and there’s nothing wrong with that at all. But when a part fails it might be due to an arbitrary decision made on your behalf that might have been better if you had direct control over it. YES, it assumes you know what choice to make, and for that, a part designer should be specifying the details. When something like infill or wall thickness really matters for a given part, the modeler/uploader often DOES specify those details—at least I do. When they don’t, it’s usually because it does not affect performance, and it’s up to you (or the printer) how much filament they want to waste on infill and perimeters, or how much time they want to spend printing the part. Defaults are usually fine for these choices. I see they have 20% infill as a lowest default. I often just print 15%.

Tap threads probably means they will spin a thread tapper into holes you specify in your technical drawing—if you choose to. Inserts are brass threads that they can heat up and push into holes—again, probably based on your technical drawing.

It seems PCBWay has a LOT more capabilities which is good to know if you ever come across a part you need printed that requires some specific details like this. For everything else, I suppose not knowing is not really hurting. What’s that saying? Ignorance is bliss? It can be!

Thanks for sharing some of these details. As someone who prints stuff, I would not otherwise have known the options that exist. It is good info for all of us.

 

[Dave928]

is it safe to assume that 100% infill makes it a solid part?

 

[caver01]

is it safe to assume that 100% infill makes it a solid part?

If what you mean by solid is that there are no air gaps in the interior space then yes. However, somewhat counterintuitively, a rigid part is not necessarily a solid one. Sometimes 100% infill results in a part that bends easily whereas a part with Just two or three perimeter or wall thicknesses and minimal infill to hold everything in place is far more structurally sound.

 

[Dave928]

yes i meant air gap/appearance -wise, not strength.

 

[caver01]

Yeah, and sometimes you want that solid part so that it does have flexibilty where you need it. The CRT tube protector for example has thin areas around the barbed "clips" that ensure thin but solid material there will bend enough to open and attach the the neck. With control over the variables, you can specify a higher perimeter count for example, to keep the filament lines going in the same parallel direction. There is also concentric infill.

I know it can seem like a lot of nit-picky detail, but a decision made right or wrong here can mean the difference between a satisfactory part or one that will break, or fail in its intended function. Fortunately, not all parts require that kind of attention. It's ultimately a compromise between function, strength, and efficiency (both of materials and print time). A print service that doesn't offer every detail is making it easier on their customer in one sense, but also still needs to make these choices and will usually find what is best for what they think you need, or follow some guidance and make you sign a waiver for failures.

 

[caver01]

Slicer software that prepares a model for printing will have hundreds--literally--of settings to deal with. These programs usually have ways to reduce how much they overwhelm the user by having a beginner mode, advanced, expert, to keep some of the less-used stuff out of view unless you really need to tweak something. Settings are also often material dependent.

I think it's cool that print services are available, but it always amazes me they can get away with such simplified ordering interface. I suppose they do limit the choices which definitely helps them dial in a workflow and standardize most settings.

 

[JDW]

I consider everything said by @caver01 to be extremely educational. It's what needs to be said in a 3D printing discussion like this. Thank you!

At the same time, no matter how much study "the majority of people" put into 3D modeling and printing, that same majority still won't fully understand it.

While I think JLC and even PCBWay are helpful for geeky people like me, there are still technical considerations that people who have less patience and understanding than even I do will prevent them from effectively using those services.

I've often thought that the best solution is to have a means to purchase a printed part from the STL creator, printed by the creator. I realize that's not possible a lot of the time because taking people's money, printing, then shipping orders is a huge mess few want to deal with. But in terms of "getting the best part possible," that's really the way to go. Of course, even if that were possible (it's not most of the time), the buyer would then have to contend with multiple shipping fees charged by individual 3D printed part sellers, making it less financially attractive than to just use a 3D printing service like JLC.

People who understand 3D modeling and 3D printing and who have their own printers and filaments have it made!

By the way...

JLC has an entire article on infill density and type here:

Choosing the right infill structure for 3D printing

This article explores how to choose the right infill structure for 3D printing, covering various infill densities and patterns to optimize material usage while maintaining strength and durability.

jlc3dp.com

Very odd that same page makes no mention of how you specifically request the kind of infill you want, but I Googled up the following Reddit which suggest you must email them to get it:

 

[Dave928]

so, on the brightness knob file that i got from Printables, PCBway sent me an email stating that in the file the outer knob and inner spline were 2 separate parts and they merged them and want permission to print as one piece.

yes please.

 

[Dave928]

I've often thought that the best solution is to have a means to purchase a printed part from the STL creator, printed by the creator.

which is why i think it's great that zzjoe includes the bracket and bezel with his LCD kits, instead of "here's the file! print it yourself!"

honestly, beyond these mac parts ( i ordered a couple that are not clear SE/30 parts) i don't know what else i would need to print. while i have seen some fairly cool models, i don't generally have a bunch of knick-knacks laying around, making the cost of a printer infeasible.

 

[JDW]

which is why i think it's great that zzjoe includes the bracket and bezel with his LCD kits, instead of "here's the file! print it yourself!"

Absolutely! Some penny-pinchers complained under my video about the $500+ USD price tag, but they forget that 3D printed parts made to perfection are also included. Not only included but MOUNTED. Other kit creators would probably have tried to keep the price down by saying, "Do such-and-such yourself" and the buyer would then think they were getting a good deal, but after figuring out how much time and effort would be required to get the 3D stuff PROPERLY printed and then mounted, it wouldn't save them much of anything in the end. TIME IS MONEY.


BTW, you can get the Mac CRT Yoke protector straight from 1-bit Rainbow (Nick Gillard) here:

1br: Macintosh CRT Neck Protective Cap (128K/512K/Plus/SE)

www.1bitrainbow.co.uk

I didn't do that only because they are in the UK, and while I am interested in buying a Pico Mac Nano from them, I've been waiting on them finishing the optional Speaker Module, and it's not known when that will be.

 

[Dave928]

it's funny you mention the yoke cap, that's the one part i forgot to order.

PCBway did send other emails, mostly about parts being too thin in certain areas and they wanted to print them thicker or add support. so they do put each part under "engineer review" (for whatever that's worth in China).

 

[Dave928]

you could have a Pico Mac Nano running INSIDE your clear SE/30.

 

[JDW]

PCBway did send other emails, mostly about parts being too thin in certain areas and they wanted to print them thicker or add support. so they do put each part under "engineer review" (for whatever that's worth in China).

Wow!
If PCBWay really will alter the STL in all the right places to make the excessively thin parts thicker, then that is a huge win for the customer! JLC won’t do that. JLC just tells you they either can’t print the part or you the buyer need to accept all risk of possible deformation!

 

[jmacz]

I agree with everything @caver01 stated. He is spot on.

I do feel that infill has to be provided as an option to the purchaser for the reasons @caver01 stated. But perhaps there is merit in having a basic novice interface and advanced one. Stuff like tapping threads and adding brass inserts are nice, but yeah most people won’t have a clue whether they are needed let alone provide info on the insert size or the tap size.

 

[caver01]

A lot of novice/expert options could be improved on these service sites by having a better UI/UX. I see there are the ”?” icons we would call “tool tips” that popup an explainer bubble, but it could be a lot better. Something like “this option controls the xyz of the pdq” and give a better explanation and definition with suggestions about where or when it might be useful. Or suggest detail like “we typically print at 20% infill and 2 perimeters because it is the optimal balance of speed, strength and material consumption, but if your item is mechanical, or if it needs to be stronger, you can adjust the selected. . . .” You get the idea. Maybe even keep advanced options under a drop down area that you can reveal if necessary. I think there is a way to enable great self-service options when and if needed, and the service that gets it right at a fair price will win the business.

Case in point, JLC has that minimum size issue. Now, I know from experience that small parts can pop off the print bed making a mess of the print causing you to start all over. They want to avoid that and not babysit the printers. So, they set a minimum size. They could also offer a brim setting and tell you it will print more safely but that you need to trim (or peel) it off. How hard would that be? Instead, we have to come up with the brim ourselves. They are just not quite optimized yet, but will surely get there.