Tunnel vision on PB170

3lectr1c

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If the problem is due to adhesive failure, why would some displays not be affected? If we look at other functions on these computers that degrade, such as rubber parts that go all melted and sticky, it happens to just about all of them. While most 170s and 180s have the problem, many (including my own 170) do not. My PowerBook 170 has zero tunneling as far as I can tell, I’ve left it on for well over an hour with no signs whatsoever.

Perhaps moisture is what causes the seal to degrade? One interesting thing about my 170 is that I do not think it was ever stored in a musty basement. I have found that most of the old computers I’ve bought smell of old musty basement, which would suggest that that is where they were stored. The 170 on the other hand, actually smelled rather nice when it arrived. My guess is that it was stored in a closet or something, inside of its bag which was included when I got it. This works in favor of the moisture theory, but not the glue theory. That is all that I can give really, it’s my only laptop with an active matrix mono/grayscale display.
 

bwinkel67

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If the problem is due to adhesive failure, why would some displays not be affected? If we look at other functions on these computers that degrade, such as rubber parts that go all melted and sticky, it happens to just about all of them. While most 170s and 180s have the problem, many (including my own 170) do not. My PowerBook 170 has zero tunneling as far as I can tell, I’ve left it on for well over an hour with no signs whatsoever.

Perhaps moisture is what causes the seal to degrade? One interesting thing about my 170 is that I do not think it was ever stored in a musty basement. I have found that most of the old computers I’ve bought smell of old musty basement, which would suggest that that is where they were stored. The 170 on the other hand, actually smelled rather nice when it arrived. My guess is that it was stored in a closet or something, inside of its bag which was included when I got it. This works in favor of the moisture theory, but not the glue theory. That is all that I can give really, it’s my only laptop with an active matrix mono/grayscale display.
Yeah, my PowerBook 180 was also very well kept. Other than the missing back door, which was actually in the advert but the seller misplaced it (and I believe the hinges were actually good but for some reason it popped off) the unit is pristine. There are no scratches on it, the SCSI hard disk is whisper quiet, and the floppy sounds new. I would group observations like that under anecdotal...well, they can be useful observations but become anecdotal if we draw immediate conclusions solely from them. I think collecting observational data like how quickly does screen fail, how does it fail (always on left for everyone or does it differ), what trace does it leave after power off and how quickly does it recover, and experimentational of how outside temperature and humidity impact the screen (does it fail quicker in hotter temps, or is is just humidity), does running it in cooler environment change things (i.e. outside in the winter or in a refrigerator as I suggested -- I'LL RUN THE REFRIGERATOR TEST IS SOMEONE SENDS ME A BROKEN LCD PANEL). So that type of information could be very useful if collected.

With regard to some failing and others not, I've read that the back-light in some is more yellow vs in others it is more white. So again, part of the data collection would be % of failed with yellow vs white back-light. Also, when and where are the screens made (I need to look at the circuit board to see if it identifies date and origin). So there are likely different production runs and different facilities that created them. So your display may have been made in Taiwan whereas mine could have been made in the Philipines (I made these two places up to make a point). Local supplies of a sealant could have varied. I would also think that time and heat are the enemy of most sealants, causing drying and cracking. But there are a lot of PowerBook users with TFT screens that have the tunnel vision issue, so I would say those that don't either had there's made in a limited production run (maybe towards the end of the PowerBook model) or, as you said, some environmental condition that needs to be pinned down. But collecting data is better than drawing quick conclusions, that's all I'm saying. I fear that there are a bunch of folks stuffing their poor PowerBooks in bags with rice hoping things will improve.

So I think if we, as a community, want to get at the root of the problem, this type of input would be helpful. But to be honest, when I researched this stuff, the frustrating thing is I only read mostly anecdotal stories, like some guy who lives in Arizona not having any issues and therefore it must be moisture because it's dry there, etc... Reminds me of the Monty Python Witch logic skit:
 
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3lectr1c

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Good points, I’d be glad to check my manufacture date/region if you do find that it is labeled. My backlight is super white, much more so than other 170s appear in photos. CCFL backlights usually turn yellow with use though, not over time. Mine is probably just a low hour system.
 

Androda

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Do we have any information about which panels are specifically affected by tunnel vision?

I'm pretty sure there were 2 manufacturers for many of the grayscale displays in laptops. Do we know if it's only one brand that has the issue?

The unfortunate thing is that being certain which display model has tunnel vision means taking apart the display assembly to check the model number.
 
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retr01

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I think there should be a label on the back of the LCD display itself after taking the display out of the PowerBook as shown below to check the model number:

1656204374604.png

Screenshot taken from the following YouTube video:
 
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bwinkel67

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The unfortunate thing is that being certain which display model has tunnel vision means taking apart the display assembly to church the model number.
Maybe a correlating attribute could be serial numbers of the actual PowerBooks, as that would avoid anyone not feeling comfortable taking their machines apart to still contribute to some data.
 

retr01

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Maybe a correlating attribute could be serial numbers of the actual PowerBooks, as that would avoid anyone not feeling comfortable taking their machines apart to still contribute to some data.
I think that would be quite a challenge as so many were produced, and now those are scattered everywhere.
 

3lectr1c

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Maybe a correlating attribute could be serial numbers of the actual PowerBooks, as that would avoid anyone not feeling comfortable taking their machines apart to still contribute to some data.
On a slight tangent here, I was wondering about something like this for Maxell batteries. Apple used around 5 different battery brands, and while they can all leak, the Maxells are so much worse. If we know for example (this is completely made up), that a Macintosh IIci assembled at the US manufacturing plant on May 1st, 1990 shipped with a Tadiran battery, it would be pretty safe to assume that IIcis made around the same time would also have shipped with a Tadiran battery. Having a rough idea of this would be helpful when chancing it with an untested Mac. Better to take the chance on a machine that likely won't have a Maxell than one with one.

I'm planning a thread on this soon.
 

Daniel Hansen

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retr01

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Thank you, @Daniel Hansen! With the information you provided, I was able to track down a list of PB 1xx LCDs at oldcrap.org. Does that line up what you have, Daniel? :sneaky:

Below that list on that site shows pictures of various LCDs and discusses about the inverters.

ModelIntroDisplayInverterInterfaceVideoMatrixDualMic
1001991SharpLM64P791TDKKU-02194V-0N
PCU-659B
1-640-493-12M
1401991SharpLM64P51TDKCXA-0112
PCU-662A
820-0411-02M
1701991HosidenHLR1014-101125HosidenMEC-37AV-0
HLR1014-103802
820-0411-02MA
1451992SharpLM64P58TDKCXA-2010
PCU-773
820-0411-02M
1601992SharpLM64P58TDKCXA-0112
PCU-662A
820-363-01GDB
1801992HosidenHLR1021-101182TDKCXA-2011
PCU-734
820-363-01GADB
165c1993SharpLM64C06PTDKTDK CE-2112
PCU-721B
820-0419-ACDB
145b1993SharpLM64P58TDKCXA-2010
PCU-773
820-0411-02M
180c1993SharpLQ9D01AUnknownDC-290820-0438-ACADB
1651993SharpLM64P582TDKCXA-2010
PCU-773
820-363-01GDB
1501994SharpLM64183PTDKDAC-0510JP48.42903.00G
1901995CasioMD805TT00-C1Apple820-0569-An/aGS
190cs1995TorisanLM-CJ53-22NAKApple820-0569-An/aCS
 
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3lectr1c

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I've seen that list, and you can see that the 170 and 180 both use Hosiden panels. It would be interesting to see the manufacturer of the Duo 280 and 540 displays, but both of those systems (especially the grayscale 540) are pretty rare. Same with PC laptops that have the problem. Is it mainly a Hosiden problem?

What's also interesting is that the Macintosh Portable can also have tunnel vision problems, but it's very uncommon on those. I wonder who made the portable LCDs?
 

Daniel Hansen

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The Portable's screen is a Hosiden HLR1010-10-1101 (the 5120, not sure about the 5126)
 
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3lectr1c

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Thanks for clarifying! Interesting that the portable LCD doesn’t have this issue as much. What makes it different? You don’t hear about Portables with this issue. Techknight has one with the problem, but that’s the only example I know of. Not sure if his affected display is a backlit or non backlit though,