WarpSE: 25 MHz 68HC000-based accelerator for Mac SE

[Trash80toG4]

edit: @mg.man

Wondered about that myself, but decided it best that SCSI->Anything should be atop the chassis. Especially when SD is involved. as you won't really wanna have to be pulling the mobo/accelerator to change out media, no?

Better to provide a PDS passthreu for use above the deck as well I think. Gotta count pins, I'm getting 64, which isn't a full PDS, but it only needs 1bit addressing for Video I think?

Width's available for a full passthru, but keeping thruholes pin compatible as an extended MagicBus connection would be the way to go I think.

I also think that the footprint of the TPD card is far in excess of anything anyone will be developing. LOL!

 

[Trash80toG4]

Ah, you beat me to the post. Any chance you can snake the lines from various locations within your current layout up to MagicBus locale?

Overlayed copy of WarpSE pic was scaled to within a percent point of matching copy of Radius pic from NuBusMafia at 'fritter. Something doesn't add up?

 

[mg.man]

Everything would have to be rejiggered a bit to let the PDS bus go upward.

If you recall my original suggestion, it was to use a wire-wrap "female" connector on the "upper" side of your 'board, with the pins going through the 'board to the underside. Those would then go into the PDS connector on the SE logic board and would eliminate the "male" connector you'd normally fit. There should be no need to layout anything.

The above said, I don't believe there are / were(?) many/any "vertical" SE PDS cards. I *thought* my SE StNIC (ethernet) card was "vertical", but it's not.

Of course, "new" vertical PDS cards could be created...

 

[Zane Kaminski]

If you recall my original suggestion, it was to use a wire-wrap "female" connector on the "upper" side of your 'board, with the pins going through the 'board to the underside. Those would then go into the PDS connector on the SE logic board and would eliminate the "male" connector you'd normally fit. There should be no need to layout anything.

Yes, yes, that's what I meant by "Current layout doesn't support anything but the vertical PDS extension right above the existing one."

Issue is that the whole stack might be too tall with a vintage PDS card installed above the WarpSE. Either way, we can do small, thin cards with this kind of footprint:

I think the vertical cards should be avoided since not all chassis have the cutout. A network + 1-bit high-res video card seems doable with the double-stacked horizontal card approach without the stack being too tall and hitting the chassis.

 

[mg.man]

decided it best that SCSI->Anything should be atop the chassis. Especially when SD is involved. as you won't really wanna have to be pulling the mobo/accelerator to change out media, no?

Well, yeah, but how often do you "change" the media? I don't... and... in the original days, you'd rarely open your "compact" up once you were going... Further, even the cheapest SD cards have HUGE capacities compared to those old days...

I think I could fit a video card or network interface

This is what I was thinking, but instead of your "laid on top" approach (which I doubt there's room for), why not go "up" through the SE/30 chassis "hole" that later SEs had (thanks to using the same chassis) as the '30?

 

[mg.man]

I think the vertical cards should be avoided since not all chassis have the cutout.

I don't have any solid proof, but it might be that only the "800k" original SEs were lacking the "hole". Also, SE/30 chassis are pretty available - esp. given all the '30s that have succumbed to Maxell bombs. Something else, I'm pretty sure those chassis with the hole will have down-turned metal around the edges of the "hole" - so you may not have as much clearance as you think...

 

[mg.man]

Re. extending out...

The current placement doesn't really have enough extra room to run the whole address bus through there...

Ooo... yuk... that does look like a PITA!

I think I could fit a video card or network interface

A grayscale one? Perhaps a fork of the current Bolle - Geekdot effort over at the other place?

 

[Trash80toG4]

I don't have any solid proof, but it might be that only the "800k" original SEs were lacking the "hole".

I'd check SE/30 against FDHD release dates first. Then make a general request for SE serial numbers of both types of chassis?

Also, SE/30 chassis are pretty available - esp. given all the '30s that have succumbed to Maxell bombs.

Yep, MLA member donated one to the cause last week! Said he has stacks of sheet metal gubbins.*****

I'm pretty sure those chassis with the hole will have down-turned metal around the edges of the "hole" - so you may not have as much clearance as you think...

Given the low profile of current SMT components, Zane's proposal makes a lot of sense in terms of physical limits. Check out the clearance zone specs for the SE in DCaDftMF. I'd think the proposed stack is well outside the low clearance zone. "Turned down edges" would be well outside component placement of stacked board assy.


***** Grist for dedicated thread: been toying with doing a laser cut chassis designed with series of holes defining/enabling DIY bends to be done by hand with sheet metal seamers available at Blue and Orange Boxes. NBox brake I no longer have not required.
Haven't done anything on that as original plan was/is doing clear plexi in the same manner using a heat gun for hand bending. That one's for the semi-clear SE/SE/30 hack platform I have do to maceffects' amazing generosity. I can do that one with tried and true Plexi fab methods.

Back burnered plans on that would be for doing a very low production run of same via CNC router cut V-grooving/laser cut outline processes.

 

[Trash80toG4]

A grayscale one? Perhaps a fork of the current Bolle - Geekdot effort over at the other place?

No such luck for SE, single bit limited on the video front.

 

[Zane Kaminski]

I don't have any solid proof, but it might be that only the "800k" original SEs were lacking the "hole". Also, SE/30 chassis are pretty available - esp. given all the '30s that have succumbed to Maxell bombs. Something else, I'm pretty sure those chassis with the hole will have down-turned metal around the edges of the "hole" - so you may not have as much clearance as you think...

Lemme check my SEs and see how many have the have the hole for the vertical card.

I'd think the proposed stack is well outside the low clearance zone. "Turned down edges" would be well outside component placement of stacked board assy.

Yeah, lemme see how close it is when all stacked together. If it's not too tight then I think the horizontal card will work best. I'll have to see.

No such luck for SE, single bit limited on the video front.

Yeah, SE doesn't really do Color Quickdraw so only 1-bit is practical without big software mods to quickdraw.

 

[mg.man]

so only 1-bit is practical

Oh well... can't blame a guy for hoping...

 

[Trash80toG4]

Yeah, SE doesn't really do Color Quickdraw so only 1-bit is practical without big software mods to quickdraw.

Might not really be that bad. Bad info about Quickdraw support in this LEM workup, but interesting piece of equipment and a much more simple software hack for that kind of tinkerer hereabouts:

ScuzzyGraph and ScuzzyGraph II | Low End Mac

Take apart the drivers for printing to color ribbons on the ImageBanger from single-bit Macs. According to Eudi/Gorgonops that's how Aura Systems pulled off the color/grayscal magic that is ScuzzyGraph. Parlay that wedge into a VidCard spec for support of the available GS neck board in the SE and you'd be onto something.

Recreate the entire black box and you'd have same for driving GS/Color external displays from Portable, PowerBook 100 and the Classic along with the SE. I think that's worth looking into for someone around here?

 

[Trash80toG4]

Here you go, Zane. this is a rough-in of WarpSE version of what I'm planning for an SE/Plus specific rendition of Performer/32:

Move your WarpSE over to the side enough to fork PDS connections over to Accelerator and up to proposed Radius MagicBus based MagicBus+ thruhole implementation. It can be alot tighter than illustrated and you don't need to extend your board all the way over to SE spec. standoffs. Standoff location of Performer combined with the two of the MagicBus Adapter ought to do the trick.

I'm planning on supporting Radius FPD and TPD cards with the center, 64pin MagicBus compatible section. If that's desired it's easily user implemented using rows of header sockets.

MagicBus interface is extended on both sides to full 68000 PDS spec. on MagicBus+ That way anyone who wants to work on PDS expansion can have at it on the FPD Card form factor playing field. Pinout will be a bit strange, but connections will all be on there for popping it up above deck.

The four staggered 16pin thruhole sections of MagicBus appear to be approx .08 pitch(?) and match DIMM slot pattern, so edge card interface on ProtoBoards and a section of DIMM connector on the accelerator I think?

If you don't want to go with MagicBus+ all you need to do is move the WarpSE section far enough to implement matching passthru in parallel to your PDS connector if height allows or come up with another interboard connector setup between PDS and accelerator? No need for any major overhaul of your existing PCB layout required.

 

[Trash80toG4]

Still haven't buzzed connections for the pinout you requested, LMK if you will need or want it.

/PDS Tangent

 

[Ubik]

Here’s an interesting article from MacWorld March 1995 about the 16 MHz 68000 Brainstorm Accelerator that achieves favorable results against the 030 Classic II. The article mentions a proprietary bus accelerator:

“The unique part of the Brainstorm package is the BBA. It replaces the SE's 8MHz bus controller with a proprietary 16MHz chip, increasing the speed with which data shuttles between memory and SCSI peripherals (such as hard drives) on one side, and the processor on the other. The result is an SE that approaches a Classic II in overall performance”

 

[lilliputian]

I would love a Brainstorm Accelerator for my Plus because of that bus accelerator.

 

[Trash80toG4]

“The unique part of the Brainstorm package is the BBA. It replaces the SE's 8MHz bus controller with a proprietary 16MHz chip, increasing the speed with which data shuttles between memory and SCSI peripherals (such as hard drives) on one side, and the processor on the other. The result is an SE that approaches a Classic II in overall performance”

Methinks you should post a new topic about Brainstorm. I'd forgotten about it.

Reverse engineering the function of that proprietary "bus accelerator" will be a great topic for discussion. WAG here is that it might be treated as a Black Box and implemented on current hardware with open source building blocks?

Where does this bit of sorcery appear on the timeline of Frontside/Backside Bus implementations? SO cool!

 

[Kai Robinson]

Methinks you should post a new topic about Brainstorm. I'd forgotten about it.

Reverse engineering the function of that proprietary "bus accelerator" will be a great topic for discussion. WAG here is that it might be treated as a Black Box and implemented on current hardware with open source building blocks?

Where does this bit of sorcery appear on the timeline of Frontside/Backside Bus implementations? SO cool!

Johan Grip has imaged the die already - just needs to be decoded.

 

[Patrick]

I have one! .... well the plus version. i posted a thread about it here

https://tinkerdifferent.com/threads/mac-plus-with-brainstorm-accelerator-doesnt-like-system-7.207/

tl;dr. I still havn't figured out why it doesn't like system 7. .. and i THINK its unstable in system 6 but works most of the time.
I was able to update the firmware on it and it fixed the sound problem. ..
it was an interesting find tho.

edit: maybe i should try to reverse the upgrade and see if it works better. anyways. don't want to hijack this thread. if i do i'll post about it there.

thanks for the macworld page ubik.

 

[Trash80toG4]

Nice to know we've got a few of these in good hands. I've only seen a little of the die imaging info out there. I've seen some of the gorgeous stuff Siliconinsider has done. How many folks are tinkering with exploratory die destruction?

Lots of interesting info popping up in this thread, is there a dedicated Accelerator Discussion I haven't found as yet?