WON'T POWER ON: PowerBook Wallstreet PDQ

[JDW]

I have two PowerBook Wallstreet PDQ notebooks that once worked fine several years ago), but now neither will power-on when I press the POWER button (long or short press).

When I first plug-in the Apple AC Adapter, the fan spins at full blast and the green power LED lights for a couple seconds, and then the fan and LED power off. After that, pressing the power button does nothing.

I have no working battery anymore, so I only have AC power from the stock adapter. I've tested both PDQ machines with nothing in either drive bay and with even the hard drive removed, but to no avail. Both PDQ machines respond in the exact same way — power button doesn't power them on, despite my hearing the fan spin and LED light initially after connecting the AC Adapter. I've swapped their CPU cards, but again, it doesn't resolve the problem.

Here's a video overview of what I explained and mentions a couple voltage measurements I made too...

Wallstreet repair experts...
How can I fix these machines?

 

[JDW]

Something good but strange happened today. I accidentally left the Apple AC power adapter connected to the PDQ and to the wall socket all last night, and just for the heck of it, I pressed the power button. To my surprise, I heard a boot chime and then 15 seconds later, I saw the display light up, and I saw the disk icon with flashing “?” in it. The hard drive did not spin up for some reason, but technically it powered on.

It’s really strange. Good, but strange.

I then went to get my camera so I can take a photo, but by the time I got back the screen was dark and pressing keys did not wake it up and pressing the power key did not make it wake up or chime again.

Thoughts?

 

[Froggy814]

Capacitors most likely. I have heard that if you leave a PowerBook 1xx series plugged in for a couple of hours that the capacitors that have leaked will have enough power to work a little. Not certain, but most likely.

 

[JDW]

Well, remember there are five electrolytic capacitors on the main DC board that sits between the two drive bays. Those are the only electrolytic capacitors in the entire machine. And they sit quite a long distance from the smaller DC board that is where the barrel plug attaches from your AC adapter. Distance is significant. We need to be mindful of it. Because if those five electrolytic capacitors were indeed critical to the operation of the machine, and not simply to support power going to/from the drive bays alone, I must logically conclude that they should be found closer to the CPU and logic board. That point alone makes me doubtful that swapping out those capacitors would be the magic fix.

On top of that, there is no sign of leakage whatsoever. And I fully realize that capacitors can dry out and slowly turned into resistor, even when there is no sign of leakage, but these capacitors are either sitting on their side or upside down, which further helps to ensure the electrolyte stays in them. And they are also not located in a hot part of the machine either.

Normally, when we look at other vintage Macs, like the motherboard of an SE/30, SMD capacitor leakage is obvious, and everyone in the community knows from years of experience those absolutely must be replaced. But the community is utterly silent about the capacitors inside the WallStreet (PDQ in my case). That cannot be because those machines were not popular. They did sell fairly well. More likely it’s because those five capacitors did not prove to be a major problem in those machines like electrolytic capacitors have been a problem in older vintage Macs.

Nevertheless, there will always be people who continue to point the finger at those five electrolyte capacitors, so I’m just going to have to spend my money to replace them to put it into this speculation. But my gut feeling says that even if I pay the money to buy the best capacitors and replace them, I still am probably going to have a problem. And then what?

With that said, the AC adapter may have electrolytics inside, but it’s tightly sealed and would need to be cut open, which means the plastics would unlikely be able to be used anymore. That pose is a That poses a problem for safety. And considering how compact it is, the plastic case is probably very close to the electronics inside, so cutting could accidentally damage something. It’s a real risk.

So I guess the question at this point is, have any of my fellow Wall Street owners found a suitable modern replacement for the stock Apple AC adapter? The output is 24 V at 1.875A.

Unlike the Macintosh, Portable, I’m assuming that a modern replacement power supply with a higher amperage rating (e.g. 3.0A, 4.0A, etc.), would NOT damage in the machine, but I have no experience to say what will happen.

I would love to hear any additional thoughts you folks might have. Thank you.

 

[Froggy814]

I didn't mean to say that the capacitors were the problem, I was just telling you what I heard from other people about the older PowerBooks. If you don't think they would do anything I wouldn't want you to do it.

If you are going to buy capacitors just because, I would suggest taking the capacitors off of one board first and then measure it to see if it is the right value before buying. I don't want to push or be one of those people who says do this do this do this. Pull the parts cannon!

I also assumed there were a lot more electrolyitic.....

I would love to hear any additional thoughts you folks might have. Thank you.

I would like to hear more before jumping to conclusions as well.

 

[JDW]

… I would suggest taking the capacitors off of one board first and then measure it to see if it is the right value before buying.

I sincerely appreciate you’re having made time to give me advice. Unfortunately, I know from firsthand experience that desoldering electrolytic capacitors and then measuring them, even using one of the best handheld LCR meters like the DE-5000, will sometimes give you readings that make you think the capacitor is perfectly fine. I have measured capacitors like that, but the circuit didn’t work until I swapped them out. So I guess I’ll just need to bite the bullet and pay the $16 in international shipping to get those capacitors over here so I can swap them out and if the machine doesn’t work then that will be the definitive word on the matter, putting that particular topic to rest.

---

As an addendum to my earlier post here, I would just like to add that even after leaving it connected for more than half hour, it still doesn’t power on. So I guess I have to leave it connected to number of hours? Not sure.

Anyway, while the AC adapter is connected to the wall socket and to the computer, touching it with my hand gives me a very slight sensation of warmth, which is probably normal.

When I pressed the power button earlier (which miraculously caused it to make the boot chime and power on that one time), I heard a very tiny little pop sound, most likely coming from the speaker, at the exact moment I pressed the power button. I think that’s normal, but I just want to report it because after the screen went dark, every single time I’ve pressed the power button again, there is no little pop sound at all, and of course the computer doesn’t power on either. Just something to take note of.

Also, it is extremely significant that I got a boot chime today (even though it only happened once). The screen came on and displayed the disk icon with the flashing “?” inside. If the CPU card was bad or if any of the RAM was bad, I don’t think that would’ve happened. That also shows the logic board is fine. The hard drive did not spin up, but maybe that’s a power related issue.

 

[Froggy814]

Do you get any sound or video out externally. (I am not acquainted with these machines so I don't know if they have ext. video or headphones.


I also didn't realize you could get a wrong reading from a capacitor like a battery.

 

[Froggy814]

Also once you keep it plugged in for a while feel everything before turning it on to see if it is hot, (if it is torn apart) that might be able to tell you if something is different because of heat.

 

[Froggy814]

I hope you don't take me for a capacitor replacement fanatic. I was just putting 2 and 2 together and getting 3. I hope you don't think I am like that!

 

[JDW]

Do you get any sound or video out externally. (I am not acquainted with these machines so I don't know if they have ext. video or headphones.

I've not tested the headphone jack or the VGA output connector because I've not had need too. Today's reveal shows why. Today, for that one time only, I got a boot chime (which means the internal speaker works, and there's no need to check for sound via the headphone jack) and I also got the display backlight and LCD to activate and function normally (for a short period of time lasting a couple minutes).

Here is a photo showing all the ports, just FYI:

I also didn't realize you could get a wrong reading from a capacitor like a battery.

I would not say it is a "wrong reading" necessarily. My DE-5000 is working fine. My preferred term is "misleading" reading. Because if you measure good values for ESR, etc., and then you swap out that capacitor with a new one and find your circuit then starts working, you then know the capacitor was bad despite the good readings. That is because the meter doesn't impose a major load on the capacitor, whereas when it is installed on the circuit, the capacitor has to work harder to do its job.

Also once you keep it plugged in for a while feel everything before turning it on to see if it is hot, (if it is torn apart) that might be able to tell you if something is different because of heat.

It's not heat. I say that because I have a thermal meter and checked the computer, and there is nothing that get's worrisome hot at all.

I hope you don't take me for a capacitor replacement fanatic. I was just putting 2 and 2 together and getting 3. I hope you don't think I am like that!

I do not. Nor was I in any way chastising you. I was simply telling you my gut feeling, along with my analysis. Nevertheless, I can swap out the capacitors. It just takes time because I am located in Japan and Mouser ships from the USA.

My guess is that the external AC Adapter must be failing to supply the required voltage/current while under load (attached to the PDQ). But again, cutting open that sealed adapter isn't something that is the idea. Having a new adapter with the same barrel plug, supplying 24V at about 2A is best. But that is only speculation at this point.

I have two Apple adapters. I swapped out both in my testing over the past couple weeks but such made no difference. Even so, both were made at the same time back in 1998, so both could have bad electrolytic capacitors inside for all I know.

 

[Froggy814]

I am glad you already checked everything I would check. I was just wondering about the ext. video and audio, because what if it is a chip. But the processing is probably handled by the same chip for ext. video as well as audio...

 

[Elemenoh]

In case you didn’t try already, re-seat the processor card. Hit the connectors with some contact cleaner if you have. Even back when new, these had a tendency to lose contact and need a re-seat to get working again. I wonder if that case where it worked unexpectedly would be related to that (thermal expansion or jostling from other troubleshooting).

 

[Yoda]

@JDW, while I have no immediate suggestions to offer, except to say that both my PDQs have been a bit inconsistent in their power-on behaviour in the last couple of years, what I will say is that only once did one of them exhibit this power-up/then die symptom as you describe, and after I poked about randomly inside, it never did it again.

However, I have one of them sitting on the table in front of me right now, so if there are any experiments you'd like me to try on it - allowing for the fact I'm physically limited in what I can do by motor control health reasons - let me know and I'll help as and where I can.

 

[JDW]

I appreciate all advice.
Below is the result.

STEPS PERFORMED:

1. Disconnected AC Adapter and pressed the power button for several seconds.
2. Removed CPU card and both RAM modules from it.
3. Removed Hard Drive
4. Put 100% IPA onto a soft cloth and meticulously wiped down the gold pads on both sides of each of the two RAM modules and also on the male connector on the hard drive.
5. Sprayed DeOxit D5 into the CPU connectors on the logic board and also sprayed it on the matching connectors on the CPU card, then connected and reconnected more than 10 times. I wiped away the excess spray.
6. Sprayed DeOxit D5 into the hard drive connector on the logic board, then connected and reconnected the hard drive about 10 times. I wiped away the excess spray.
7. I made sure the solvent was dried before connecting the CPU and HDD and leaving them connected.
8. I connected the power adapter that was the same adapter I used when I found I had left it connected overnight and then pressed the power button the following morning and was surprised with a boot chime and disk icon on the display. After connecting it today, after my connector cleaning, the fan spun up and the LED lit, as normal.
9. Pressing the Power button did nothing.
10. I performed a PMU reset, then pressed Power after that. Still nothing.

CONCLUSION: Contact cleaning of the CPU, RAM and HDD did not invoke any changes nor solve the problem. The PDQ still won't power on.

Furthermore...

• I had the AC Adapter connected from 12 Noon to 5PM yesterday, then pressed Power. Nothing. No chime. No signs of life.
• I left the AC Adapter connected from 5PM until 10AM today. I pressed Power. Nothing. No chime. No signs of life. (That was before my contact cleaning.)

Lastly...

I will order the 5 capacitors (both aluminum electrolytic types with low ESR and polymer types, just in case the ESR of the polymer caps is too low for the DC circuit). That will put to reset the suggestions that recapping may be the culprit. But again, the caps are far from the CPU and HDD, so I think they are there mainly for dealing with the two drive bays. Even so, we shall see.

 

[S. Pupp]

So I guess the question at this point is, have any of my fellow Wall Street owners found a suitable modern replacement for the stock Apple AC adapter? The output is 24 V at 1.875A.

For my PDQs and Lombards, I use an FSP AC adapter from Digikey (Digikey part number 2967-FSP050-DAAN3-ND, FSP part number FSP050-DAAN3) with a connector adapter from Bix Power. It appears that Bix Power does ship to Japan.

 

[JDW]

I actually started investigating that right angle adapter from Bix a couple days ago, but they want $45 for shipping alone which is an absolute ridiculous amount considering the size and weight of that thing. It’s totally utterly unacceptable.

It’s quite sad too because in theory it should allow use of any 24V, 2A or higher modern AC adapter.

With that said, I am thinking about purchasing something from a US based seller and discussing with that person if I could have the adapter shipped to them so they could ship it to me. We shall see.

 

[Knife Cult]

Do you have a power adapter for a PowerBook?

forums.macrumors.com/threads/how-to-use-a-g3-g4-power-adapter-on-a-clamshell-ibook-pismo-wallstreet-lombard-pdq-powerbook-g3-1400-3400.2393395/

 

[JDW]

Do you have a power adapter for a PowerBook?

In my specific case, yes, I have two, specifically made for the PDQ machines. Model M4402. I uploaded photos here.

But the reason we are discussing the right angle adapter is for the sake of using an alternative, modern AC adapter. If one uses a mere "compatible Apple" adapter, it too would be vintage, possibly have leaking capacitors, and be suspect. A modern adapter would not be suspect. We simply need that right angle adapter. And to prevent that one company from having a death grip on it (they alone sell it now, and gauge people outside the US for outrageous shipping fees), I think I will talk to Mark J. at MacEffects about the possibility of them selling something similar in the future, opening the door to a realistic price for buyers worldwide.

But at the end of the day, I have no idea if even that will solve my problem.

I decided to hold off on my Mouser order for those 5 capacitors because my gut is telling me VERY STRONGLY those 5 caps have nothing to do with the problem. They are just too far from the motherboard and HDD to make any sense at all. They seem to be there to support the two drive bays. And so, I want to test a modern replacement AC Adapter first. If that fails, buying those 5 caps is my fall back. And if that too fails, then all I have are tears.

 

[JDW]

And just to let you all know, I left the same PDQ connected (the one I used DeOxit on yesterday), with the same AC power adapter connected, for a total of 24 hours, but upon pressing the Power button on the PDQ this morning, nothing happened, and no small "pop" sound from the speaker. As I mentioned in this post, the machine did give me a boot chime and display with disk icon ONCE, and only that once.

 

[JDW]

I've been testing the Power button nearly every single day (except holidays) since my past post. Remember, I have two PDQ machines, and neither will power ON normally, even though they both did some years back. I got one of them to power on once and mentioned that experience in this post. But after much testing over many days, it refused to power on (with boot chime) again, despite my having followed the advice of @Elemenoh and used a contact cleaner (DeOxit D5) on the CPU card and HDD contacts.

I stopped testing that machine several days ago and switched to my second PDQ, using the same Apple AC adapter that I had successfully used to get that other machine to boot-chime once. But every single day I would press the power button only to get nothing but silence. Well, today was different. I got 3 boot chimes back to back and even a successful boot (after swapping the hard drive). Check that out in the following video...

After making that video, I then connected an Ethernet cable and started downloading TechTool Pro 3.x from Macintosh Garden. I had the machine on for almost 1 hour, but then it suddenly powered down in the same way you saw it do in my video (with that hard drive that didn't boot). Pressing the power button after that failed. No more boot chimes.

But what happened today proves two things:

1. Except for that one HDD, the machine is good. If the CPU card or logic board or my second hard drive or any of the power boards were bad, it would not have booted. Not sure about the AC power adapter, but the computer itself is clearly good.

2. The Wallstreet PDQ can absolutely boot without any PRAM battery, main battery or anything in both drive bays. My video stands as 100% proof of that.

ZigZagJoe shipped my NuCF order along with the right angle adapters I bought separately and had shipped to him. So long as the box isn't seized as e-Waste (I will be livid if it is), I hope to receive it in about a week and test it with this modern 24V adapter I plan to buy off Amazon Japan.

 

[JDW]

It's been almost a month since my last post, so I want to provide an update so as to hear your kind thoughts.

ONE PDQ NOW POWERS ON RELIABLY​

First, I've been testing one of my Wallstreet PDQ machines almost daily (the one with a 266MHz CPU card). For much of September, I left the stock Apple AC Power adapter connected to the wall socket and to my PDQ. What I found after several days was that it would regularly power-on when I pressed the Power Button. No need for any PMU reset. It just worked. That only applies to one of my two PDQ machines, but at least one of them powers on well now (so long as the AC Adapter is left connected to the wall and PDQ).

However, the main problem has been that the machine suddenly powers off (loses power) after a while. And that span of time varies, almost like it is random. Sometimes, I can use it for 1 hour before it suddenly powers off. Other times, it's a half hour. There have been times when it was more than 1 hour. And yes, it still happens even if I keep a floor fan on the machine to ensure heat is not the issue.

​

MY OTHER PDQ REFUSES TO POWER ON​

My PDQ with 300MHz CPU card refuses to power on even if I put the 266MHz card in it and swap RAM and even remove the main Hard Drive and keep both drive bays empty. I left the Apple AC Adapter connected to it and the wall socket for days last month, but to no avail. Even with the new 24V Adapter, it still won't power on. The hard drive works, despite having shown signs that something liquid had spilled on it in the past. I can put that drive in my other PDQ and it boots. So perhaps something spilled on the drive while the 300MHz PDQ was powered on in the past and that shorted something, but clearly not the hard drive, even though I see the liquid flowed under the drive and onto its PCB. I'm not seeing any burn marks on the machine's main PCB, however. Not sure what's wrong with this machine.

​

MODERN AC ADAPTER TESTING​

I purchased this modern 24V 2.5A Adapter from Amazon, and I recently received my ZigZagJoe order which contained the adapter plug from Bix Power. (I had the plug shipped to him, and he kindly shipped it to me with my NuCF order.) No need to keep this connected to the wall or the PDQ, I'm pleased to report! The adapter will reliably power-ON one of my PDQ machines without fail! So I guess the improvement must come from bad caps inside the stock Apple AC Adapter, which is only overcome if you leave it connected all the time. The same is true of the G4 Cube power brick -- it often fails to boot the Cube unless you recap.

Sadly, this modern AC Adapter does NOT resolve my sudden power loss issue. As was true of the stock adapter, this new adapter too fails to keep the machine alive all the time. Sometimes it powers off after 1 hour, and sometimes less. (When I say "power off" I mean "loses power suddenly.")

When the machine loses power, if I press the power button soon afterward, it often fails to boot chime or show any signs of life. But if I wait 15 minutes or more, it sometimes powers on. That was true of the Apple adapter and this new one too. I've tested that over and over.

​

WHAT I'VE TRIED​

CPU CARD SWAP​

I am able to put the 300MHz CPU card into my PDQ which has a 266MHz card, and the 300MHz card works just fine. But the sudden power loss problem remains.​

​

RAM SWAP​

I have used 8-chip and 16-chip RAM Cards, but the power loss problem remains.​

​

CONTACT CLEANER​

I have used DeOxit D5 on the CPU Card connectors and the RAM socket connectors, but the suddenly power loss problem remains.​

​

EMPTY DRIVE BAYS​

I've tested extensively with nothing in either drive bay, and with the Apple CD-ROM in the right drive bay. Made zero impact on the machine. Sudden power off issue remains.​

​

PMU Reset​

Does not fix the sudden power off issue.​

​

BATTERY (in the distant past)​

In the past, when I had a good main battery, I don't recall ever experiencing this sudden power loss problem (when the main battery was inserted and charged). It's only now that I have no main battery at all that I have the power loss issue.​

​

SLEEP MODE​

If I put the machine to sleep (while booted into OS 9.2.1), I can come back the next day and it wakes just fine. But I cannot leave it powered and awake for more than an hour or so before that power loss problem occurs.​

​

SOLDER JOINTS​

I re-soldered the joints on the main DC input plug in the past, but that was never a solution for me.​

​

PRAM BATTERY
I confirmed that PDQ machines will indeed boot WITHOUT any PRAM battery installed at all. Mine was dead, so I removed it. Presence or absence most likely has nothing at all to do with the sudden power loss problem.​

RECAPPING​

I still think the electrolytic capacitors that are on the PCB which sits between the two drive bays are too far away from the primary DC board that has the DC input jack on it (at the back of the machine). I therefore am highly skeptical if that would be "the magic fix" for this sudden power loss problem. Nevertheless, to avoid a situation where folks continue to point to finger at those caps, I will need to now buy the caps and see what happens.

YOUR THOUGHTS​

Now that you've read my report, I'd certainly appreciate your thoughts and suggestions.
If I recap and still have the same power loss issue, then it's clear something else is the cause.
THANK YOU!